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Roman knife shapes
#16
Quote:@Robert Matthew,
for a bladesmith build surgeon instrument were a very proud, so maybe show the kit were a reason to increas his public prestige...
Aye, it's just that having four of them on display together seems excessive if that was the intent. Medical tools (such as those shown above) were mostly copper alloy, with some iron scalpel blades, which would mean that they would serve themselves as demonstrations of a totally different set of skills...
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#17
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bonho1962/2375691894/

They could also be bundles of utility knives, this is the interpretation given in the Museum of London. I do quite like those knives, have a couple in the making for future sales :-) I may even do a full cutler's stall as an impression! But it looks like you need something as big as a wardrobe closet :dizzy:
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#18
Quote:http://www.flickr.com/photos/bonho1962/2375691894/
They could also be bundles of utility knives, this is the interpretation given in the Museum of London.
Thanks for that, that does look like a more obvious explanation! The looped pommel of the utility knife is certainly visible on the stele.
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#19
Quote:The figure on the left is clearly Atimeto, proudly wearing his citizen's toga, but who is the figure on the right? His wife? A customer? She seems to be examining his wares. Do we have a date for this stele?

The relief is dedicated to L Cornelius Atimetus, and his freedman L Cornelius Epaphra:

L(ucius) Cornelius / Atimetus / sibi et L(ucio) Cornelio / Epaphrae lib(erto) / bene merenti / ceterisq(ue) libertis / lib(ertabus) posterisque / eorum (CIL VI, 16166)

So I would guess Atimetus is the citizen in the toga, and Epaphra (who may have worked in the shop 'very meritoriously') is the man on the right. I'm sure it is a man, by the way - unbelted tunic, looks rather like those on Pompeian wall paintings.

As for date - probably Flavian?
Nathan Ross
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#20
His faithfull and hardworking slave, granted freedom on his demise?
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#21
Quote:So I would guess Atimetus is the citizen in the toga, and Epaphra (who may have worked in the shop 'very meritoriously') is the man on the right. I'm sure it is a man, by the way - unbelted tunic, looks rather like those on Pompeian wall paintings.

As for date - probably Flavian.
With that in mind, presumably the freedman Epaphra was responsible for running the shop and perhaps overseeing the craftsmen who made the knives? The scene would therefore be of the freedman displaying the products to his (former) master, who presumably wouldn't lower himself to actually engaging in commerce and pay for something...
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#22
I took the unbelted tunic for a gown. What sort of name is Epaphra? Sounds vaguely Greek to me. Getting off the subject of knife shapes, I know, but I find these stelae endlessly fascinating.
Pecunia non olet
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#23
Sorry, but I think that claiming those as surgical kits is very optimistic. They could just as easily be 4 moulded wooden columns supporting the shelves, with a square pull out drawer in each one. you can even see the drawer handles
"Medicus" Matt Bunker

[size=150:1m4mc8o1]WURSTWASSER![/size]
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#24
Equally, why would you have utility knives in a kit?
Surely a surgical set for a field surgeon would be a marketable product.
You wouldn't want the most expensive surgical instruments being out on campaign,
where they could potentially be lost to the enemy.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#25
Quote:Equally, why would you have utility knives in a kit?
Why wouldn't you? Kitchen knives are often sold in kits now and that's only the most obvious example. We don't know much about how other craftsmen (leatherworkers, butchers, tailors?) kept their tools together but I wouldn't be surprised if they used similar looking bundles.
Quote:Surely a surgical set for a field surgeon would be a marketable product.
You wouldn't want the most expensive surgical instruments being out on campaign,
where they could potentially be lost to the enemy.
You could say the same for any item of military equipment! I think if a surgeon is in a position to lose his instruments he's probably also going to lose rather a lot more as well - in that his camp, fort or marching column would have been overwhelmed... I think there's also the question of whether functional iron tools would be significantly cheaper than copper alloy to take into account.


Quote:They could just as easily be 4 moulded wooden columns supporting the shelves, with a square pull out drawer in each one. you can even see the drawer handles
The 'bundle' on the right does appear to have a ring pommel knife (or similar) in it, so I can't see them being just columns. That said, I have no idea what the 'drawers' might actually be if that were so.
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#26
What I was trying to say is the tools may well be combination iron/bronze, but of lower
finish quality than a surgeon with an established civilian practice.
But seeing the bigger image I see they are not enclosed kits but bundles...so I agree surgical instruments probably not so likely.

And yes, that is exactly what I was saying, you would not want to lose your best equipment on a campaign. Probably, with certain exceptions, a surgeon would be a valued prisoner....
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#27
I believe the knives tied in a bundle would not have been sold that way, as a kit. It is just a convenient way of displaying them IMHO. The ringknives as shown in the Museum of Londen display are pretty basic, utilitarian kitchen tools, so would not be hung out, they are all the same. So having them in a bundle would make sense, you go up, select one from the bundle and pay.

Looking at the display, I see little evidence for these to be "wrapped kits of surgical instruments". These were highly prized and highly priced articles made by specialised craftsmen. It would indeed seem unlogical to have not one, but four sets in the stall. That would amount to a small fortune! Then there is the assumption that working, turning and casting high quality bronze instruments is a different dicipline from blacksmithing/knifemaking. It requires a totaly different set of tools and also skills. Surgical instruments would be a centerpiece, not wrapped and hidden away, as the ability to make them would certainly be something to be remembered by on a stele. So I believe the best bet would be bundles of utility knives.
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#28
Quote:The 'bundle' on the right does appear to have a ring pommel knife
There's a hole in part of the sculpture which looks like it might be part of a ring pommel....or it could be damage to the sculpture itself..it might be all sorts of things. I still think that the evidence for claiming that these are bundles of anything is pretty flimsy.
There's an even clearer picture here, possibly taken from a slightly higher angle.

[attachment=5899]cutler.jpg[/attachment]

Those 'bundles' fill the space between the table top and shelf above, rather than 'floating' in the space as the other knives do. To me, that indicates that they are part of the furniture rather than seperate items. The four square items set in front of them are obviously standing proud of whatever they are...and they do seem to have handles on them.


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"Medicus" Matt Bunker

[size=150:1m4mc8o1]WURSTWASSER![/size]
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#29
OK, assuming they are not bundles, this is still a display cabinet, a stall from which ware is sold. The four "columns" are recessed into the tableau. They do not seem to have a structural function, as it is a cabinet on which the doors, now seen open, close.
So I will venture another guess, taking Matt’s idea a bit further. They could be drawer like constructions, in which the knives are hung in slots. This would explain the tapered look of the “bundles” and the furniture character of the four square parts, which are level with the doors closing. Pulling one out would give access to the knives hung in them. In a portable cabinet, one tries to be as efficient with space as possible while showing off the wares at their best advantage.
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#30
Aha, like the sort of narrow, pull out cabinets you find in some modern kitchen designs but just for hanging knives in? I like that idea.
"Medicus" Matt Bunker

[size=150:1m4mc8o1]WURSTWASSER![/size]
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