Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Sassanian/Roman Four Horned Saddle
#16
Quite a bit has been written about the Roman saddle. I believe Connolly's justifiably famous reconstruction was based on both archeological finds and surviving depictions. From what I understand (and I've read very little of the specialist literature), his reconstruction was based on an extant goatskin saddle cover found in the Valkenburg fort in the Netherlands, and bronze pommel plates found in Germany. I think the wooden frame was speculation, but the goatskin cover and the surviving depictions of saddles suggest that Connolly's reconstruction is probably entirely accurate. Connolly's saddle affords a very secure seat, and this seems to be confirmed by the tombstone of Bassus, which I believe may have been of particular inspiration to Connolly.<br>
<br>
However, there is some evidence that not all Roman "horned saddles" were identical to that reconstructed by Connolly. There are four pommel plates of somewhat different form (though obviously of very similar purpose) in the National Museum of Scotland. And numerous Roman depictions of horsemen seem to show horned saddles with a "looser" seat. That is, not as snug and hip-hugging as Connolly's reconstruction, or the saddle on the Bassus monument.<br>
<br>
Some evidence suggests that the horned saddle may have been rather well known in parts of the ancient world. The idea that it was adopted by the Romans from the Gauls is based entirely on a single piece of evidence, the depiction of a riderless horse on the Julii monument (the Gundestrup Cauldron, which is too stylized to be of much worth, is just as likely Thracian or even German as "Celtic"). Still, it's quite possible the horned saddle was employed in parts of Eurasia before it was adopted by the Romans, and definitely seems to have come into wider use shortly afterwards. There is considerable evidence that the Sarmatians and Bosporans used a form of horned saddle by at least the 1st century AD and possibly earlier. There is at least one clear depiction of a late 1st century Palmyrene horseman using a horned saddle, and a crude 2nd century graffito suggests that it may have been used by some Arab tribes as well (I should note that these are all simply casual observations on my part, and should in no way be considered an exhaustive survey).<br>
<br>
It is assumed that the Sassanians used the horned saddle, based on the remarkably clear representation of such a saddle on the Taq-i-Bustan monument, which shows the late 3rd century Persian king Varham II tilting against an enemy. In fact, the Taq-i-Bustan saddle is far more advanced in design than any depiction of a Roman saddle I know of, comparable in design to early 14th century European war saddles. What's interesting is that the horned saddle on the monument is being used by the enemy horseman, and not by the Sassanian king, who is clearly not using a horned saddle. In fact, I don't know of any other Sassanian monument that depict such a saddle, and many, even of armored riders, that clearly do not (though I need to see a much more detailed photo of the Naqsh-i Rusam monument before I'd stand by that statement). I'm unaware of any theories of exactly who the enemy might be on the Taq-i-Bustan monument, but the Sassanians seem often to have taken pains to depict their enemies realistically, so I suppose it could be a depiction of a later Roman cavalryman.<br>
<br>
Here are a few articles on the four horned saddle that might be of interest. The first deals with the Roman saddle, the last dealing specifically with Sassanian and Parthian saddlery:<br>
<br>
<br>
Peter Connolly, "A Reconstruction of a Roman Saddle," [in:] Brittania 17 (1986).<br>
<br>
Peter Connolly, "The Roman Saddle," [in:] Roman Military Research Seminar, BAR, Int. Ser., 336, Oxford (1987).<br>
<br>
G.M.E.C. van Boekel, "Roman Teracotta Horse Figurines as a Source for the Reconstruction of Harnessing," [in:] Roman Military Equipment: The Sources of Evidence. Proceedings of the Fifth Roman Military Equipment Conference, BAR, Int. Ser., 476, Oxford (1989).<br>
<br>
G. Herrmann, "Parthian and Sasanian Saddlery. New light from the Roman West." [In:] Archaeologia Iranica et Orientalis. Miscellanea in honorem Louis Vanden Berghe. Edenda curaverunt L. De Meyer et E. Haerinck, Volume II. Gent: Peeters Presse, (1989) pp. 757-809.<br>
<br>
R. Ghirshman, "La Selle en Iran." [in:] Iranica Antiqua, 10, (1973) pp. 101-107<br>
<br>
Gregg<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Reply
#17
Avete, omni!<br>
<br>
The four-horned saddle on the Spanish website looks intriguing... thanks for posting the link!<br>
<br>
Des anyone know who makes this? Could this be the mysterious Deepeeka prototype?<br>
<br>
The seat looks a little long to me, and the horns look too widely spaced to be supportive. From Dr. Junkleman's images, I was under the impression the front to horns sloped back a bit to partially go over the rider's thighs and give him a little extra support.<br>
<br>
T. Flavius Crispus <p></p><i></i>
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
Reply
#18
I'm not sure I'd trust <strong>my</strong> bottom to that website saddle, and I'm not sure I'd put an unfitted saddle on my horse, either. The Connolly articles are very good, as are the photos in the Hyland books.<br>
<br>
You may be able to take these illustrations and construct some basic plans, then take them to a saddler. The saddler will (presumably) be able to construct something that is passably similar, fitted for your rear end, as well as sized for the withers of your horse. You don't want your animal to end up with galls or sores. Custom fitted tack is always best.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
Jenny <p></p><i></i>
Cheers,
Jenny
Founder, Roman Army Talk and RomanArmy.com

We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best we can find in our travels is an honest friend.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson
Reply
#19
I'd stay WELL clear of this saddle!<br>
<br>
Too long, horns are wrong, and it looks seriously uncomfortable for both rider and horse!<br>
<br>
Peronis. <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#20
gregg, sassanian,<br>
The Deepeeka Roman saddle does indeed existr. i commisioned it, and have held the tree in my hands. It is based on the illustrations of the connnolly type, from the Tiberias Claudius Maximus book. The tree was made by a real saddle maker and very robost. Regrettably, I have not been able to induce deepeeka to finish it yet. They do not think there will be a big market for this. It probably won't happen until I order at least 10 myself, but want to see at least one finished one first. I will try again on my September trip.<br>
<br>
I rode the original protoltype Connolly saddle on e the first phase of the Junlkelmann Limes march from the North Sea to the Danube. The tree was already broken by Marcus, and after a week I stopped too, as it was beginning to hurt the horses back. I believe the saddle would have not broken if Peter had covered the treee with Rawhide, like the McClellan, and other saddles. This dramatically increases the saddles strength, just as rawhide does for scabbards and shields. I will try to have the Deepeeka tree covered with rawhide too, before the final leather cover.<br>
<br>
My own roman saddle, used in the second phase of the Limes Reit, is an entirely different design, using the Rotweill type bronze stiffeners, and based on the traditional French Carmargue saddle tree, which may well have saw it origins in the original celtic one. At the same time, Junkelmann's new saddle was radically different yet, based on a traditional North italian style with very short, flexible horns. You can see both in the 3 volume Junkelmann set (though can't say what pages as my books are still at the Vittoriano in Rome). All types are plausible, and clearly, light cavalry had different needs than heavy. With its high, verh stiff horns, I believ mine is well suited for heavy cavalry and suitable with my cataphract armor (also now in Rome).<br>
<br>
As there seems to be some interest in this, I may risk having these saddles made by Deepeeka. I need six myself and could likely sell the other four. I will post these on RAT when and if I get them.<br>
<br>
There clearly seems to be some roman cavallry horses larger than 14 hands, but probably reserved for the elite Alaes. I believe most of the Roman horse bones found are from the more plentiful draft horses, and more commom (and inferior) Cohors Equitata.<br>
<br>
Dan. <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#21
I would suggest that you contact Chris Tayler<br>
www.saddlersden.co.uk/workshop1.jpg<br>
He has made several and experimented with the best methods to achieve accuracy and comfort. <p></p><i></i>
Quod imperatum fuerit facimus et ad omnem tesseram parati erimus
Reply
#22
Ardeshir,hope you're hving success in getting a Roman saddle made,just thought I'd stick in a few viewpoints to consider.There is no conclusive evidence that the Roman saddles had wooden trees in as only the leather has been found.It's possble they were stuffed with grass or straw or some other material.This would have in effect made the saddle like a large beanbag,when you sat on it the horns would have closed around you slightly.Remember the on saddles we know of prior to these were the Greek saddles which were just a piece of cloth or animal skin,not much different from being bareback.Treeless saddles are now beginning to make an appearance in the horse world now,(albeit with stirrups).As I understand it these give you a seat which is slightly further back,much the same position as if you were bareback,see the connection with the Greeks?Also to use these saddles effectively you need a horse that is well collected down on the hindquarters ,light on the forehand.You see this on most Greek/Roman sculptures containing cavalry.I think it's great that more people are looking to get horses out to reenactments,especially given the logistical nightmare of moving horses to events.What sort of standard of riding is the closest to the Roman cavalry that we have today? In my opinion it has to be Rejoneo,bullfighting on horseback.The horses are well trained and the riders when stiking at the bull are able to lean out of the saddle and continue to control the horse with their legs,something that dressage riders or western reiners don't.Anyway just my opinion.Allthe best,Lawrence <p></p><i></i>
Lawrence Payne

Asking me to tile your bathroom is like asking Vermeer to creosote your shed ;-)
[url:2kdj7ztq]http://www.romanmosaicworkshops.co.uk[/url]
www.romanmosaicworkshops.co.uk
www.romanmosaicpatterns.com
Reply
#23
Like Derek said contact Chris Taylor at the Saddler's Den, he does incredible work and he told me, just this week, he's working on one now.<br>
John Gross <p></p><i></i>
John Gross
Reply
#24
Like others I have been searching and trying for years to get saddles done, but nothing ever seemed to work out as planned. in the end if the saddle is correct and comfortable for both horse and rider on for long rides then I am in. I have a couple I need to get in the saddle- Johnn <p></p><i></i>
Animals die, friends die, and I shall die, but one thing never dies, and that is the reputation we leave behind after our death.
No man loses Honour who had any in the first place. - Syrus
Octavianvs ( Johnn C. ) MODERATOR ROMAN ARMY TALK
Click for Rule for Posting [url:3135udah]http://romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
Reply
#25
Thank you to Dan and everyone else.<br>
<br>
Dan, if you do get a saddle, please put me first on the list. I will definitley buy one. I am working on a Sassanian Heavy Cavalry suite, and the saddle is one of the hardest things to find. If Deepeeka makes a few, please contact me directly. I would love to buy one or two.<br>
<br>
[email protected] <br>
<br>
As for the Sassanian Saddle. There were a few types of Saddles used in the Sassanian armies. I have stood at the wall carvings at Tagi Bustan and Naghsi Rustam and seen them in person. The four horned saddle is used by many of the early Sassanian kings like Ardeshir and Shapur and it is clearly visible in the wall carvings. In fact, its visible on many of the other battle freezes and coronation freezes. The other form of saddle that was used is exactly like the McClelland Saddles. In fact, the McClelland saddle is a copy of the old war saddles. So, it is with minor alterations that the base saddle can me made to look like many of the saddles used by the Persians, Romans and the like. Finally the other saddle that I noticed is a much more refined and elaborate saddle as that pictured on the Tagi Bustan picture. For lack of a better description, it is a much more refined and elegant version of the McClelland. Much lower profile with lower pommel and cantle. More cirular as well in the pommel and cantel and more ornate.<br>
<br>
As for the horses and their sizes. Much of the Roman writings regarding their confrontations with the Parthians and Sassanians mentions the Roman fear and Hesitation in confronting the Heavy Cavalry of that region because of the much larger horses. When they refer to the much larger horses, they are referring to horses that topped out at 15.2 to 15.3 hands. The light Cavalry and medium Cavalry and Horse Archers also ranged between 14.3 to 15.3 hands. Having said that, in the east, the Romans eventually employed many of the local and local equipment and tactics into their ranks to be able to confront this eastern problem. Hence the evolution of the Heavy Roman Cataphract which resembles almost identically the Sassanian Cataphract. In fact, it is very easy to assume that many were infact peoples of those regions employed by the Romans, in Roman fashion.<br>
<br>
On a side note, many of those wall carvings and grotto carvings are beyond explanation. No photo, can in anyway explain the size and enormous example of them and the detail in them. I studied the bridles, saddles the armor very carefully and took very careful note of them. Saw many actual Sassanian and Parthian artifacts in person and let me tell you, they are unbelievable. Especially the Swords. A sword, dagger and horses bit are in the Metropolitan Museum in New York. I highly recommend you see them if you have a chance. They are unbelievable examples.<br>
<br>
Anyway, Dan, if you could please contact me directly, I would love to pursue this option with Deepeeka as well. I have Peter Connolly's specifications on the saddle. But before making one myself. Id like to pursue the Deepeeka option first. Peters sent me the article on how to make it. Its quite a process. Very simple yet extremely complicated.<br>
<br>
Ardeshir Radpour<br>
[email protected] <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#26
You are absolutely correct. I agree with you on much of what you say. I was very classically schooled in Dressage, and play Polo Professionally. Also, I often practice many of the Sassanian Cavalry tactics on horseback. Three of my horses are trained not only to play polo, but for combat, if necessary (huge smile). I have done quite a bit of archery and lancing. Also, I am very used to riding in huge crowds. I was USC's mascot for over 5 years and the performances I did, they can nolonger do.<br>
<br>
You can see some photos if you like<br>
<br>
www.tridian.com/ardeshir <br>
<br>
never mind the sassanian photos on there, that was an extremely early picture. The belt, quiver and sword are not appropriate, the outfit has changed quite a bit. I just wanted to see how the helmet and mail worked together and the mail shirt. I made it all. Now it has new fittings and arm guards and so.<br>
<br>
All the Trojan armor you see, I made. Its not accurate, because USC wanted a very Romanesque and more idealized image, So that is what I came up with. Much improvement over what we had. The chestplate on Traveler is a copy of a sassanian chestplate. Now just have to find the saddle.<br>
<br>
Thanks for the awesome reply<br>
<br>
Ardeshir <p></p><i></i>
Reply
#27
Yes, I know this is an old thread. It has some good info though.

Has anyone used one of the deepeka saddles in the mean time and can offer advice on how good they are (for actual use, not for just display purposes).

A freind of mine saw these in 2004 at an event
http://ceffyl.net/wordpress/eponanet/pi ... enactment/

and is now thinking of buying one.
Nantonos / Chris Lilley
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Roman Saddle/s photos needed bachmat66 4 2,317 08-17-2011, 11:51 AM
Last Post: jvrjenivs
  Sassanian - Roman Saddle SassanianPersian 38 7,332 07-09-2010, 09:23 AM
Last Post: John Conyard
  Where can one find Roman cavalry style saddle? ohcapt13 19 5,818 06-03-2008, 01:51 PM
Last Post: John Conyard

Forum Jump: