Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
The Draco standard
#91
If the origin of the draco was Dacian, why do we find in depicted earlier some 5,000 miles to the East? The origin of the dragon, itself, can Also be traced to the EAST, aka-- China.

Beyond that statement, I'm staying out of this one! :whistle:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#92
Quote:We have be wary of that indeed, which is why I don't support such perverse logic. But we still have to take into account that the possibility exists. If we exclude that possibility, we are forced to take each text literally.
Of course one has to be aware of the possibility but that is not to say that the possibility actually existed. The problem is that I am a lawyer and lawyers like evidence. In fact, we insist upon it. In the absence of evidence, a case cannot be made. So, cite me the evidence of dracones being used as wind direction finders and I will review my position. Until then, yes, we have to take our sources as we find them.


Quote:Eagles never had serpent tails, nor did a vexillum develop into a battle standard with a streaming tail. Neither do Celtic, Germanic, persian battle standards which arer solid objects without streamers.
No, can't follow you there, because if this was a logical development we would see many more battle standards with streamers or tails, and we don't, at least not in this period. The 'draco' therefore, in my opinion at least, is far more likely to have been originally something 'with a streaming tail' than something that aquired this in order to function better.
I think that you misunderstand me. I have not said that it is a logical development for battle standards to develop tails or streamers. I simply likened dracones to the types of standards that had that characteristic. If the eagle could fulfill its function without streamers, so be it (I bow to your superior knowledge of the form of Celtic, Germanic and Persian battle standards but the same applies). As to the effect of the draco in battle, consider Julian at Strasbourg (Amm. 16. 12. 39):

Quo agnito per purpureum signum draconis, summitati hastae longioris aptatum, velut senectutis pandentis exuvias . . .

'On recognising him by the purple ensign of a dragon, fitted to the top of a very long lance and spreading out like the slough of a serpent . . .' (Loeb translation)
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
#93
Quote: A dragon doesnt had necessary a lizard head,
Well, maybe, but the word "dragon" translated directly into Latin is, indeed, draco.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
#94
On reading the Ars Tactica book 35 I think Arrian gives a pretty good explanation as to the purpose of draco standard and how Scythians/Roxolani/Iazyges & later Roman cavalry used them. While Roxolani fought on the side of the Dacians, the Iazyges fought for the Romans in Trajan's war. Of the 2 Roman sources mentioned, he was the closest source to Trajan's wars in Dacia & a cavalryman to boot, who actually served in Trajan's Parthian wars, he was an expert horseman & hunter who obviously studied his enemies' tactics & methods as he showed in his “Array against the Alans." The Strategikon written a few hundred years later mentions cavalry drills like the Scythian & Alan drills where groups of horsemen perform complex circular movements with some travelling clockwise & others counter clockwise & attacking in pulse like motions at perceived weak points so maybe draco standards would have helped in co-ordinating these manoeuvres. Especially in the heat of battle.
Quote:35.2
In their charge the sections are distinguished by their standards, not merely Roman but also Scythian, so as to make the charge more terrifying.
35.3
The Scythian standards take the form of serpents of even length and hanging from staves. They are made by sewing pieces of dyed cloth together, with their heads and whole body right down to their tails like snakes, so as to produce as terrifying a likeness as possible.
35.4
When the horses are halted one sees these devices as no more than pieces of cloth hanging down, but when the horses are in motion, they are filled out by the breeze and look remarkably like beasts and even hiss as the rapid movement sends the air through them.
35.5
These standards do not merely provide the eye with a pleasurable thrill, but they also serve a useful purpose in keeping apart (the sections of) the charge and preventing the various ranks from tangling with each other.
35.6
For those who bear them are the men most skilled in doubling back & wheeling and they choose to make continually new circles and one direct charge after another, while the body of the troops have only to follow each his own standard.
35.7
Thus the succession of various kinds of wheeling, of manifold types of doubling back and of charging in different ways nevertheless causes no confusion in the ranks. For if one standard were to be confused with another or one horse to collide with another, the whole purpose both as a display and as a practical exercise would be lost.
The English translation I used is based on the Teubner text of A.G. Roos (rev. Edn. G.W. Wirth, Leipzig, 1968)
I know a lot of stuff has been covered before but I did enjoy this topic.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  The purpose of the Late Roman Draco standard. ValentinianVictrix 63 12,685 12-24-2010, 10:12 PM
Last Post: markhebb

Forum Jump: