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The Draco standard
#46
I dont believe the Draco standard was used as a windsock, it was carried by every unit in the army, whether infantry or cavalry. It's purpose may have been a rallying point for the unit, or it may have symbolised the fighting spirit of the unit, the same as the Eagle was a symbol of the Empire. Ammianus did speak of the Draco standards as being fitted in such a way that when the wind rushed through them they made a 'hissing' sound, which probably gave the impression that the standard was indeed 'alive'.

This section from Vegetius is interesting when discussing the draco-

'The chief ensign of the whole legion is the eagle and is carried by the eagle-bearer. Each cohort has also its own peculiar ensign, the Dragon, carried by the Draconarius. The ancients, knowing the ranks were easily disordered in the confusion of action, divided the cohorts into centuries and gave each century an ensign inscribed with the number both of the cohort and century so that the men keeping it in sight might be prevented from separating from their comrades in the greatest tumults. Besides the centurions, now called centenarii, were distinguished by different crests on their helmets, to be more easily known by the soldiers of their respective centuries. These precautions prevented any mistake, as every century was guided not only by its own ensign but likewise by the peculiar form of the helmet of its commanding officers. The centuries were also subdivided into messes of ten men each who lay in the same tent and were under orders and inspection of a Decanus or head of the mess. These messes were also called Maniples from their constant custom of fighting together in the same company or division.'
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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#47
Hi Alanus, Michael Rostovtzeff confirms what you say about long range archery duels in his book "Iranians and Greeks in South Russia" he talks about the differences between Scythians and Sarmatians see below

The Scythians were primarily bold archers : their principal weapons were bow and arrows. It was only after they had broken the enemy's resistance by
a succession of attacks at long range, by a continuous bombardment
of arrows, sometimes poisoned, that they advanced in wedge formation
for a final assault, a hand-to-hand struggle in which they used
their short daggers.
The tactics of the Sarmatians, especially the Alans, were very different. Their principal weapon was a long, heavy lance, such as
was carried by mediaeval knights. Covered, horse and man, with
corslets of scale- or ring-armour, or sometimes of cast iron, they
charged in masses and broke resistance by the weight of this
heavy cavalry attack : the formation may be compared to a mounted
phalanx. The lance attack was followed by hand-to-hand fighting in
which they used long swords with sharp points. The part played by
bow and arrows was quite secondary. Conical helmets of iron, and
stirrups, both unknown to the Scythians, completed the Sarmatian
outfit.
Don't know about the stirrups though.
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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#48
Quote:I dont believe the Draco standard was used as a windsock, it was carried by every unit in the army, whether infantry or cavalry. It's purpose may have been a rallying point for the unit, or it may have symbolised the fighting spirit of the unit, the same as the Eagle was a symbol of the Empire....

I think we are looking at two different perspectives. You are talking about the Roman army, which in the greater scheme of the draco's history is EXTREMELY LATE... especially with the quote from Vegetius, who mentions "the ancients." I'm referring to the draco's origin by the most "ancient" of "the ancients," which would be centuries prior to its adoption by the Romans. The draco must have arrived with the Asiatic "rain of arrows" which we are also discussing on this thread, and we have no idea how OLD the "rain of arrows" is. Confusedmile:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#49
Hi, Michael

Thanks for the quote from Rostovtzeff. He is talking about the "rain of arrows," the long range method which required "sight" adjustment when firing arrows. This, it seems, would be the origin and intent of the draco. Yes, the draco became a rallying point for the Roman army, even a cohort standard... yet only superficially related to the steppe genesis. :errr:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#50
I think my comments are valid in that the argument that the Draco was used as a windsock in order that those firing bows could determine where the wind directin was is not sustainable in light of the fact that both infantry and cavalry used them, even by 'barbarian' tribes north of the Rhine and Danube as well as by Stepe adnd Eastern Armies such as the Sasanids. Why would the Romans adopt a device and then not use it for its orignal purpose? To be this is the main reason I just do not feel the Draco was used by any nation as a wind direction determining device. In any case, it would lose this very function when the person holding the standard started to move, windsocks have to be stationary to be effective!
Adrian Coombs-Hoar
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#51
Not necessarily, you can correct for forward motion when using a windsock while moving. The windsock may have been a way for infantry to correct for wind when throwing javelins.
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#52
The "rain of arrows" was shot from a stationary position, so I see no reason why the windsock wasn't stationary. After the long-range barrage, who is to say the draconarius didn't ride down off the hill and lead the close-in attack, a natural second application as the draco becomes a rallying point?

Again, Roman and Sassanian applications of the draco were not necessarily a carryover of its original intent. We have late 4th century foot soldiers wearing scale armour and led by a draco, but this is a newer indirect application of two inventions from an earlier horse-borne age. We still see windsocks at small airports, so how can we say the original version was used for some totally unrelated purpose? :dizzy:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#53
Quote:Not necessarily, you can correct for forward motion when using a windsock while moving. The windsock may have been a way for infantry to correct for wind when throwing javelins.

No offence, but thats a bit hilarious. How far you think they was able to throw a javelin, and how much the wind will push it?
Razvan A.
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#54
I heard 30 meters for javelin distances, the wind wouldn't move it much, but it's possible. If you're going for a very high accuracy with javelin throwing at least, but if you're throwing in a cloud you have a point, wind socks would not be needed.

Either way, the Draco is undoubtedly derived from a windsock IMO - where they came from is up for debate, but I mostly see Iranian or Asian origin in it.
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#55
Quote:The "rain of arrows" was shot from a stationary position, so I see no reason why the windsock wasn't stationary. After the long-range barrage, who is to say the draconarius didn't ride down off the hill and lead the close-in attack, a natural second application as the draco becomes a rallying point?

Again, Roman and Sassanian applications of the draco were not necessarily a carryover of its original intent. We have late 4th century foot soldiers wearing scale armour and led by a draco, but this is a newer indirect application of two inventions from an earlier horse-borne age. We still see windsocks at small airports, so how can we say the original version was used for some totally unrelated purpose? :dizzy:

First of all, the "draco" appear carried by Dacian infanterists on Trajan Column. Romans will adopt draco soon after, probably along with the Dacian auxiliars that will start to enter in Roman army. At some point Thracian and Dacian soldiers formed a significant part of Roman army, similar with Germanic soldiers in west.
The first "barbarian" and first "soldier-emperor" will be of a Thraco-Getae origin, Maximinus Trax.

Draco as windsock doesn't make sense becaue it will actually show to the enemies how to shot and place their arrows, not to those who wear them. Windsock use is to show how the wind blow in the place were the windsock is placed, not some 300-400 m away.
If two armies are placed at 400 m distance, face to face on north to south axis, and the wind blow from east to west over the army with those "windsocks", that will just reveal to their enemies that they need to shot their arrows a bit right or left (depends if they are in north or south) and will be of no help to those who use them.
If the wind was considered a problem probably would be enough that few archers to shot an arrow so everyone see how they fly and were they land, and then everyone will shot according with what they saw or is ordered.
Not to mention that a windsock will be useless when in move, like during that so called "parthian shot" and such
Razvan A.
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#56
Quote:First of all, the "draco" appear carried by Dacian infanterists on Trajan Column. Romans will adopt draco soon after, probably along with the Dacian auxiliars that will start to enter in Roman army. At some point Thracian and Dacian soldiers formed a significant part of Roman army, similar with Germanic soldiers in west.
The first "barbarian" and first "soldier-emperor" will be of a Thraco-Getae origin, Maximinus Trax.

Thanks for more pro-Dacian info, but unfortunately Maximunus Trax wasn't a Thraco-Getae, since his mother was an Alana and his father was a Goth. (Hist. Augusta, 1.5).


Quote: Draco as windsock doesn't make sense becaue it will actually show to the enemies how to shot and place their arrows, not to those who wear them. Windsock use is to show how the wind blow in the place were the windsock is placed, not some 300-400 m away.

If the original draco wasn't used as a windsock, why was it a windsock? :-)


Quote:Not to mention that a windsock will be useless when in move, like during that so called "parthian shot" and such

During the second part of the battle the draco would be used as a rallying standard, but at the end of the battle we find a "Parthian" shot, a very close range shot not requiring much compensation for the wind.

But what do I know? I'm just a goofy archery instructor. :unsure:


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Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#57
Quote:
Thanks for more pro-Dacian info, but unfortunately Maximunus Trax wasn't a Thraco-Getae, since his mother was an Alana and his father was a Goth. (Hist. Augusta, 1.5).

Well, historians thought otherwise
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximinus_Thrax

<<Most likely Maximinus was of Thraco-Roman origin (believed so by Herodian in his writings).[4] According to the notoriously unreliable Augustan History (Historia Augusta), he was born in Thrace or Moesia to a Gothic father and an Alanic mother,[5] an Iranian people of the Scythian-Sarmatian branch; however, the supposed parentage is highly unlikely, as the presence of the Goths in the Danubian area is first attested after the beginning of the Crisis of the Third Century. British historian Ronald Syme, writing that "the word 'Gothia' should have sufficed for condemnation" of the passage in the Augustan History, felt that the burden of evidence from Herodian, Syncellus and elsewhere pointed to Maximinus having been born in Moesia.[6] The references to his "Gothic" ancestry might refer to a Thracian Getae origin (the two populations were often confused by later writers, most notably by Jordanes in his Getica), as suggested by the paragraphs describing how "he was singularly beloved by the Getae, moreover, as if he were one of themselves" and how he spoke "almost pure Thracian".[7]>>

His nickname, Trax, is another proof.
And I pointed this out as a possible reason of why the "draco" entered in Roman Army, as spreading from Dacian/Getae auxiliars


Quote: If the original draco wasn't used as a windsock, why was it a windsock? :-)

Well, thats what I said, it wasn't a windsock. The wind is mentioned in relation with "draco" when it is said that wind going throug it will produce a kind of sound that may have a psychological effect.

Quote: During the second part of the battle the draco would be used as a rallying standard, but at the end of the battle we find a "Parthian" shot, a very close range shot not requiring much compensation for the wind.

But what do I know? I'm just a goofy archery instructor. :unsure:

All my respect for your skills and interests good sir, frankly, but you must agree we disagree on this topic. As I did had to deal directly with a windsock I can tell you that is used just to show the wind condition in the place were is used, so its almost useless for some place 400 m away (especially as the direction of wind there can be different and not oriented toward the windsock).
In fact, would be more of a use for the enemies, who watching the lines of those who use the windsock will know how the wind is there so they can correct their shots according to that.

I find much easy to correct any "rain of arrows" by putting few archers to shot an arrow toward the enemy and see how they fly and were they land, and then give orders to anyone to shot according to that (make necessary corrections if needed etc., maybe even using "draco" signals, as pointing the standard a bit left or right)
Razvan A.
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#58
Although I agree with Diegis that Maximianus Thrax was of Daco-Roman Origin, I do not agree that the Draco was introduced by the Dacians. The Sarmatians had been in use in the Roman Army prior to the Dacii, and unless you have evidence of accounts of Dacian Auxilliaries in the Roman Army than your theory is only speculation.
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#59
Hello, Diegis

You're correct on "Thrax," although I'm more inclined to think the name referred to his origin in Thrace, not to him being a Thacian. However, as you say, the Historia Augusta has its inaccuracies. Later writers refer to his "mixed barbarian" origin, so he had a little of "something else." The Gothic father -- Alanic mother thing is all over the internet, even in the Catholic Encyclopedia which, of course, is the ABSOLUTE DEFINITIVE WORD ON HISTORICAL ACCURACY (nuk, nuk, nuk). :whistle:

But on the draco point:

A windsock is a windsock is a windsock... ;-)
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#60
Hi, on origins just looking at the photo on page 2 of this thread by PhilusEstilius (great pic by the way) if at first they started with a long range archery contest then that Draco would definitely tell any horse archers gathered around to aim a little to the left as it looks a bit breezy that day. And yes it would also tell the archers on the other side but maybe with Steppe cultures that was the point and battles started off so individuals could show off their archery skills and their individual bravery in the face of enemy fire and retold later on over a few jugs of fermented mare's milk (Sort of "Here I am give it your best shot" attitude might have been the norm).
But whoever invented Draco standard maybe when Roman vexillations were sent elsewhere the legionary standard (eagle) I assume would stay at the home base so Draco would have become popular with individual cohorts to instill unit pride in the absence of Eagle.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
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