The Draco standard

[Alanus]

It could just possibly be that the windsock had altogether differing heads-- wolf, dog, dragon, etc.-- if used as a gathering standard for various tribal clans. In other words, the Clan of the Wolf would have a wolf-head mounted on the pole, the wind sock streaming from it, so on and so forth. :???:

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Eduard,

Lucianus Quomodo Hist. 29 calls a Parthian unit of a thousand a dragon. Now this is not a very serious source, it is a comedy, so we should treat this with caution. However, the Persian name for a cavalry squadron is a dirafsh. I wonder if there is a connection, or that this is simply another case of a "Volksetymologie".

We know the Persians (and the Parthians) had windsocks, but these, too, had other animal shapes for a head.

Robert, do you know who actually started the wind-sock theory? I have always liked it, but I never found a source that seems to be its origin.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the wind-sock theory'? These objects seem to have the windsock as a primary function due to their shape? Are you suggestion that the draco (or whatever it was called by other peoples) was not primarely a windsock?

[daryush]

We know the Persians (and the Parthians) had windsocks, but these, too, had other animal shapes for a head.

Do you have a source for this?
Thanks

[diegis]

Diegis,

These images mean nothing. There is so much animalistic artworks around Europe and Asia of this very kind, it's impossible to use these as direct evidence for the "presence of draco-like symbilism in Dacia since the Bronze Age". Look at Scuthian artwork for instance. Sure, this is present in the area of Dacia during the Bronze Age, but it's also present in other areas during that same period.
Reasoning like that, we can find 'draco-like symbolism' all over the Near East to the Far East! They are just animal heads on jewellery. Not proof of the origin of the draco only in Dacia during the Bronze Age.

Well, I am not sure what similar artefacts that are of similar age old was found, but I will be glad to saw them. I know Scythians had zoomorphic elements in their arts, as other people too, but I dont know if we can talk about Scythians in Bronze Age.
As far as I know Thracians was the first indo-european people individualized among indo-europeans.

You can possibly prove either of that.
I mean, I would go as far as to agree that the Romans most probably came into contact with Dacian windsocks (I won't call them dracones because Dacians also used other animal heads for them, like wolves), but it goes to far to say that 'therefore' the Romans only knew Dacian windsocks. The very fact that the Romans only used the dragon as animal for their windsocks (instead of other animals) must also mean something. We know that other cultures used the windsock, and it's just as logical to assume that the Romans knew Dacians using them, as to assume that the Romans knew other tribes using them. Such as Roxolani, Sarmatae, Massagetae (whom I think were assumed by ancient authors to belong to 'the Getae' but not the same as the Dacians).

Well, I am not sure that the original "draco" (lets stick with this name as a cover for all such type of standards) was a simple windsock. I mean, it is plausible to have had a religious meaning too, or to be a symbol similar with a totemic one and so on.
Roman legions used eagles/aquila as such, some had different animals picted on their vexiliums.

Soma ancient authors said that the "draco" make a sound when the wind goes thru it, so it may play a similar role with trumpets, drums or battle cries.

We dont know for sure either if Romans used other animal heads for their "draco" as just one piece was found.
They probably knew at some point that others beside Dacians/Getae use such standards, but it seem that they related most close this symbol with Dacians in their depictions, both on imperial art or on coins.

The Sarmatian cavalry depicted in couple scenes on the Column dont use a "draco" for example, which is used exclusevly by Dacians, many times by infantry or posted on the walls of some Dacian fortress

[diegis]

Hello, Diegis

I'm not saying the Dacians were not early users of the draco, but that they did not "invent" it. The depiction on the Orlat Plaque-- even if we posit it at its LATEST date (1st Century AD) still predates Trajan's column. The important thing, for me, and for anyone viewing this discussion, is that the draco was used as a windsock rallying-standard and weather-vane for archers by a VERY LARGE NUMBER of steppe tribes BEYOND the Dacians. I have little doubt that the Iazyges and Roxolani-- both arriving in the Roman sphere prior to the Dacian Wars-- didn't use a similar form.

A draco, when the term is used in correct context, did not necessarily have a dragon or wolf head. As we see, the earliest examples did not have a head at all-- but they were still "dracos" in their purpose and intent. :-)

Hello Alanus

We dont know who "invented" the draco. The Orlat plaques may predate a little the Trajan Column, but "draco like" jewlery is present in Dacia (to proto-Getae or proto-Thracians to use the usual historiography) since the Bronze Age, before the formation of Scythians or Sarmatians.
We dont know how many roles it may had. Sure, one was as windsock, and on Orlat plaques is depicted a windsock, not a "draco".
But it may have other roles too, deeper and older ones.

For examples in most of indo-european mythologies a "hero" or a god fight with a dragon, so the "draco"/dragon is the negative personage. More interesting, in Germanic mythology the end of the gods and the world (Ragnarok) is bring by some fantastic wolves (Fenrir and his two sons) and a giant snake (Jormungard or something like that). This are exactly the animals that form the Dacian draco, wolves (as head) and snakes (as body form).
Even more interesting, in Romanian mythology (which is in big part inspired or taken from Getae-Dacian one) exist a kind of supernatural beings called "varcolaci"(or priculici), similar to a degree with the usual "werewolf" that eat the Sun and the Moon during the eclypses, exactly like the sons of the wolf Fenrir from Germanic mythology.

So the "draco" may very well represent something from the mythology of the pre or proto indo-european period

As for the term "Massagetae," it was used by Herodotus to describe tribes belonging to the Saka, the eastern Iranians living on the far side of the Caspian and Aral. Strabo refers to them as Saka, and Persian sources also use that name. To link the Dacians with the Massagetae is warping geography, and linking totally different tribes incorrectly. There isn't ONE professional historian in this day and age who will agree with you, not the Russians, Americans, Europeans, or Chinese. :whistle:

I am not sure what you mean by Saka? If you mean Scythians, then no, Masssagetae was not considered Scythians. Sure, it was said that they resemble the Scythians as the way of living, but thats something that every steppes people resembled regardless of ethnicity.
And as I said in another post, many of historiographies are gathered in camps (celtophiles, germanophiles, iranophiles, slavophiles etc) and as few care about Getae (Dacians) and Thracians they are left somewhere in shadow and overlooked or denied.
Fortunately some do point few things from those times, as the expansion waves coming from what was later Dacia, around 1200 BC ("sea people" was a result of those pushing waves too).
Some of those waves reached as far as China plains so I dont consider far fetched to think that Massagetae (who was mentioned as diferent then Scythians, anyway they wouldnt have a diferent name in such case) was part of those Getae who moved from their areas, like other indo-european people as Celts, Iranians, Greeks, Romans, Germans did too at some point.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Although I don't have the knowledge of Pre-Roman history that you two have, I must say based on the defining arguments here that the Massagetae/Saka had no link to the Dacians, they were another group of Steppe Nomads who were forced to migrate due to a varied set of changing conditions.

Where the Draco comes from? Who knows. It was probably introduced to the Dacii by steppe nomads IMO, but I am certain that it derived from cultures east of the black sea. Possibly Iranians, and if you look at the folklore east of the Aral sea there's some of Chinese influence, so chinese dragon lore could have had a part to play.

[koechlyruestow]

I wrote:
Robert, do you know who actually started the wind-sock theory? I have always liked it, but I never found a source that seems to be its origin.

Robert Vermaat wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by 'the wind-sock theory'? These objects seem to have the windsock as a primary function due to their shape? Are you suggestion that the draco (or whatever it was called by other peoples) was not primarely a windsock?

With windsock theory I mean the connexion between this type of standard and archery. I've read that some connect it with riding, implicitly arguing that it needs the speed of the horse to "work", showing the men where the unit is going, while the theory connecting it with archery argues it needs the wind to "work", showing the archers how to correct their aim for wind speed and direction, just like a windsock on an airfield. What did you mean?

[Flavivs Aetivs]

It could be for both, the steppe-peoples were fans of horse-archery and by using it both to correct for speed of wind and riding speed it would improve aim.

[Michael Kerr]

Hi, I often wonder about the use of Draco Standard and don't know about origins, but I like to think it was more than just a windsock. If you wanted to check wind speed and distance why not just fly a banner or pennant. With Steppe Nomad warfare tactics I always thought that horse archers get pretty close, fire their arrows and then retreat so why the need for just a windsock at close range. Horse speed measurement sounds logical. Communication and a little bit of psychological effect on enemy on a battle field seems to me to be the primary reason with the noise produced. Maybe a rallying point for horsemen who lost their mounts in battle. But whatever their primary purpose they look heaps better than just pennants.

Regards
Michael Kerr

[Alanus]

TO Diegis, and TO DIEGIS ONLY,

Your attempts to discuss the Massagetae as related to the Getae, have NOTHING to do with this discussion about the draco or wind-socks in general.

Robert split this thread, and the Massagetae subject is now separate. I answered your post on the Massagetae thread and gave a MULTITUDE of historical Primary Sources which confute your claims. Please go to that thread if you still want to change history and eastern cultures.

Thank you,

[Alanus]

Hello, Michael and all,

The longer the range at which arrows are shot, the more need for determining the direction and speed of the wind. This seems the logical reason the draco was invented. On the steppes, as well as in Roman battle situations, long range shooting was often the norm. We to often think of a quick raid ending with a "Parthian shot," like what was done to Darius by the Scythians and Sauromatae, but arrows came from all ranges and angles through all the ages. :whistle:

[Flavivs Aetivs]

It's kinematics. That's how we detrmined half of our rockets were gonna get stuck in the trees (which they did) :lol:

So a Draco is very important with regard to projectile motion.

[Alanus]

Yup! That's why they have those half-cup thingies that rotate at airports. :lol:

[diegis]

TO Diegis, and TO DIEGIS ONLY,

Your attempts to discuss the Massagetae as related to the Getae, have NOTHING to do with this discussion about the draco or wind-socks in general.

Robert split this thread, and the Massagetae subject is now separate. I answered your post on the Massagetae thread and gave a MULTITUDE of historical Primary Sources which confute your claims. Please go to that thread if you still want to change history and eastern cultures.

Thank you,

You're welcome, but heck, it seem you didnt realize the fact that I answered to your own reply about Massagetae, posted right here, after Robert made another thread for that

[diegis]

Although I don't have the knowledge of Pre-Roman history that you two have, I must say based on the defining arguments here that the Massagetae/Saka had no link to the Dacians, they were another group of Steppe Nomads who were forced to migrate due to a varied set of changing conditions.

Where the Draco comes from? Who knows. It was probably introduced to the Dacii by steppe nomads IMO, but I am certain that it derived from cultures east of the black sea. Possibly Iranians, and if you look at the folklore east of the Aral sea there's some of Chinese influence, so chinese dragon lore could have had a part to play.

There is a common preconception or misconception, heavily enforced and reinforced by some as Scythians but especially and more heavy by Huns and Mongols (and Tatars) that people moved just from Asia to Europe all the time, and every influence come from there here.
But this is simply incorrect.
First moves was from Europe toward Asia, through eurasian stepes. Neolithic societies that include beside agriculture the domestication of animals (including horses) spread in eurasian steppes from the Old European Civilization. A culture that had a proto-writing or writing and urban settlements at least a millenium before Sumer.
Then we have the movement of indo-arians, the ones who reached India and wrote the Rig-Veda, and those who reached Iran. All those comes from Europe, from somewhere around Black Sea, and traveled all the way across eurasian steppes way before others make their way in the opposite direction

Now about the Draco. For me is kinda clear it can't be a windsock.
The reasons are that a windsock is useful just when you are in a static position. When you move on the back of a horse in gallop speed the pennant or flag or windsock will wave in the direction you move, regardless of wind (or it needs to be a extremely strong wind to move it in other direction).
Then, as the windsock of airfields was mentioned, I wonder why I didnt tought earlier about that myself, as I had to do with those before.
Those windsocks show the wind direction and speed (measured by the red/orange and white bands on it), but it shows that in the area were is placed so the parachutists that come to land for example (or a light plane) to know how to position himself related with the direction and speed of wind, so have a soft landing or to reach the point he wants to for a precision landing.

But this will make no sense for a steppe army, because wearing such windsocks in front of an enemy army they will just show to those enemies from which direction the wind is blowing and with what speed (aprox) right in the place were they are, so helping actually the enemy shots who will know how to place their shots.

As such I think that the most logical assumption is that Draco was at origin a religious or mythological symbol, or a totem, and was used by some factions of indo-european tribes who was presumably in conflict to others. Marja Gimbutas talk about a conflict between the cults of Mother Goddesses and the Sky-Father, but probably was a conflict between those and others who used the dragon (and the wolf) as symbols, as both of this animals or symbols are negative and in pretty much any indo-european mythology the Sky-Father fight with a dragon (or a wolf, in Germanic mythology). There are just few people were those symbols are positive, Getae/Dacians, some steppes people and Romans

A "draco" can play the role of rallying point too, or to show where the comand of some type of unit is, were is the direction to follow and such. Armies way after that (up to modern times) used flags or visual signals to transmit orders or informations.