diegis post=326272 Wrote:About the Dacians/Getae as horse archers or having a significant part of their troops as cavalry, we have Thucydides and his work Peloponnesian Wars, Book II, were he said that "[Getae] border on the Scythians and are armed in the same manner, being all mounted archers".
I'm sure that most of us agree that there are no depictions of Dacians as horse-archers, and that Thucydides had Scythians in mind. Or are you suggesting that the steppe horse archers received their influences from the Dacians? I find that a very remarkable thought, especially when we usually see the influences (horse, archery, stirrups etc) going the other way around. Are you sure there's no nationalistic pride involved here? :unsure:
Hmm, no, i dont think so, thats just your own interpretation based on...well, dont know what? Thucydides is obviously reffering to Getae (Dacians) as something distinct from Scythians. I dont have time now to search about Greek chronicars (maybe Arrian?) who mention the one day expedition of Alexander the Great in Dacian teritory north of Danube, but there is said that one third of Getae army was made of cavalry.
I am not saying that Dacians teached stepes people how to ride a horse, of course not. I just say that apparition of "draco" there may be a Dacian influence, especially if we look here:
<<... Michael Grant: "There was a gigantic series of migratory waves, extending all the way from the Danube valley to the plains of China."[61]
according to Finley:[62]
A large-scale movement of people is indicated ... the original centre of disturbance was in the Carpatho-Danubian region of Europe. It appears to have been pushing in different directions at different times.>>
I have somewhere another source (Cambridge Ancient History) that talk about something similar, a wave of migrations started in Danube-Carpathian area that pushed in all directions at the end of bronze age - begininng of iron age.
Stepes people already used horses since quite a long time at that point, but a wave or some warrior groups of Getae/Dacians (maybe later known as Masagetae or Tysagetae) may influenced them to adopt some of their customs or symbolism, as a "battle standard", or maybe adapting that to their own customs and views.
Over time those Getae tribes was probably absorbed in the mass of locals (Iranic people, maybe some Mongol/Turkic ones too).
Here is something about the domestication of horses
<<Wild horses were domesticated in the Ponto-Caspian steppe region (today Russia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Romania) in the 3rd millennium B.C. >>
Anyway, by the time we talk about that movement of people (end of the 2nd millenium B.C.) the horse was already spread and in use in most of the Europe, Asia and even Africa (Egypt).
But as i say, this doesnt necessary means the steppe people adopted the wind-sock (sometimes without a head, just a simple wind-sock) from Dacians, it may be an independent development or just a slightly inspiration or visual inspiration from those seen at Dacians.
Another theory i saw is that the original source of inspiration may be the symbolism of godess Tiamat that spread in various ways both toward Europe and toward eurasian steppes
However, i do think that Roman "draco" was adopted under Dacian (and Thracian) influences, after an increased number of Thracian and Dacian auxiliars (later after Caracalla especially, even citizens with such origins) joined the Roman army, not long after the end of Trajan wars.
Thracians and Dacians made an important number of auxiliar Roman cavalry and existed even mistery cults as Thracian and Dacian rider that spread in Roman army at some point
Sorry this is becoming way too large for me to discuss properly. Do we need to get into waves of migration during the 10th c. BC and discuss a 2nd c. AD battle standard?
I think indeed it's a problem of interpretation: you see all Getae as Dacians, I see Dacians as one of the groups once referred to as Getae. No sense in continuing this with such a basic difference of opinion.
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Have any of you guys checked out niximperialcreations.com he's pretty much the authority here in the states he has a Draco standard that's bad ass he researches everything he does and has been doing it for a long time......I'm sure you all have heard of him....I'm new on here so I'm too green to know .....sorry
Quote:Have any of you guys checked out niximperialcreations.com he's pretty much the authority here in the states he has a Draco standard that's bad ass he researches everything he does and has been doing it for a long time......
Well, they don't advertise with it. And from what I see, most items offered are from Deepeeka so I not overly impressed.
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
I would not claim to know much about Draco standards but just cannot resist showing how it may have been used in the later period in the Hippica Gymnasium, the reason I show it is that the picture shows one of my later type creations of a Straubing horse Chamfron.
[attachment=6100]4863874091_2fb1e656c0_b1Medium.jpg[/attachment]
I don't think you we're checking out the right stuff most of what he has he makes......he does offer deepeeka but if you dig through his empire collection you'll find it
Quote:I don't think you we're checking out the right stuff most of what he has he makes......he does offer deepeeka but if you dig through his empire collection you'll find it
Nope. I've opened every page of niximperialcreations.com. Loads and loads od Dpka stuff, many many many ancient Dpka pictures, but no draco. Maybe you can find it for me? Does he have another website perhaps?
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
When I took a look back to the two images of the original you show there are no eyes in the sockets, it may just be a thought that I have that if instead of eyes could this original have had a wheel (similar to a water wheel)which rotated in these eye sockets to give the noise required.
Then the only other system one can think of is a Diaphragm with holes pierced in it that would control acoustics, in fact as children very many years ago we would get a comb and put a piece of tissue over it and blow which did give some wierd sounds.
I really don't want to throw a dampener on the Nationalistic idea of a "Dacian" ethnogenisis and "origin" of the draco, but modern historians and antropoligists have arrived at the conclusion that the term "Dacian" was used by the Romans in the same manner they also called people "Scythians." The modern (non-nationalistic) view accepts the population of Dacia as being Celts, Carpi, Greeks, and Macedonians.
Robert Vermaat has made the correct point that the draco came from a Central Asian origin and spread in different directions... just like the Indo-European language. The draco was never a Nationalistic symbol. It was a wind indicator and rallying point.
Here is the draco-- minus all the fancy wolf and dog heads-- depicted on the Orlat Plaque from Sogdiana. Many historians date it to the 1st century BC... which is "somewhat" before Trajan was born. ;-)
Hahaha, good God.
Look, I understand you are a big fan of Sarmatians (maybe Scythians too) and you are upset about some things I write. And now you try to make some ramapge and "clear the fields" so no one to shadow them.
But some stuffs you said are simply ridiculous, no offence.
At least I post some sources or make logical assumptions and not talk just from my wishfull thinking imagination
About Orlat plaques, their dating is uncertain, the consensus seeming to be somewhere in 1-st century AD however.
They arent even a "draco" but a simple windsock.
And "draco" like symbolism is present in Dacia area since bronze age at least, if you look at some zoomorphic bracelets that was found here, with a serpentiphorm body ended with various animal heads
Like these (first is dated in bronze age, second somewhere around IV century BC)
The heads in this case are some horse heads, but there are others with spirals and horned heads and such. I posted this just to see the connection with horses too, since the bronze age (so before the individualization of other indo-european populations)
Those are bracelets, but if a "draco" standard was made of wood and some fabric and leather it probably didnt survived.
Fact is that Romans always associated in their images the Draco with the Dacians
Quote: And "draco" like symbolism is present in Dacia area since bronze age at least, if you look at some zoomorphic bracelets that was found here, with a serpentiphorm body ended with various animal heads
Like these (first is dated in bronze age, second somewhere around IV century BC)
The heads in this case are some horse heads, but there are others with spirals and horned heads and such. I posted this just to see the connection with horses too, since the bronze age (so before the individualization of other indo-european populations)
Diegis,
These images mean nothing. There is so much animalistic artworks around Europe and Asia of this very kind, it's impossible to use these as direct evidence for the "presence of draco-like symbilism in Dacia since the Bronze Age". Look at Scuthian artwork for instance. Sure, this is present in the area of Dacia during the Bronze Age, but it's also present in other areas during that same period.
Reasoning like that, we can find 'draco-like symbolism' all over the Near East to the Far East! They are just animal heads on jewellery. Not proof of the origin of the draco only in Dacia during the Bronze Age.
Quote:Those are bracelets, but if a "draco" standard was made of wood and some fabric and leather it probably didnt survived.
Fact is that Romans always associated in their images the Draco with the Dacians
You can possibly prove either of that.
I mean, I would go as far as to agree that the Romans most probably came into contact with Dacian windsocks (I won't call them dracones because Dacians also used other animal heads for them, like wolves), but it goes to far to say that 'therefore' the Romans only knew Dacian windsocks. The very fact that the Romans only used the dragon as animal for their windsocks (instead of other animals) must also mean something. We know that other cultures used the windsock, and it's just as logical to assume that the Romans knew Dacians using them, as to assume that the Romans knew other tribes using them. Such as Roxolani, Sarmatae, Massagetae (whom I think were assumed by ancient authors to belong to 'the Getae' but not the same as the Dacians).
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
I'm not saying the Dacians were not early users of the draco, but that they did not "invent" it. The depiction on the Orlat Plaque-- even if we posit it at its LATEST date (1st Century AD) still predates Trajan's column. The important thing, for me, and for anyone viewing this discussion, is that the draco was used as a windsock rallying-standard and weather-vane for archers by a VERY LARGE NUMBER of steppe tribes BEYOND the Dacians. I have little doubt that the Iazyges and Roxolani-- both arriving in the Roman sphere prior to the Dacian Wars-- didn't use a similar form.
A draco, when the term is used in correct context, did not necessarily have a dragon or wolf head. As we see, the earliest examples did not have a head at all-- but they were still "dracos" in their purpose and intent. :-)
As for the term "Massagetae," it was used by Herodotus to describe tribes belonging to the Saka, the eastern Iranians living on the far side of the Caspian and Aral. Strabo refers to them as Saka, and Persian sources also use that name. To link the Dacians with the Massagetae is warping geography, and linking totally different tribes incorrectly. There isn't ONE professional historian in this day and age who will agree with you, not the Russians, Americans, Europeans, or Chinese. :whistle:
Alan J. Campbell
member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians
Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)
"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Lucianus Quomodo Hist. 29 calls a Parthian unit of a thousand a dragon. Now this is not a very serious source, it is a comedy, so we should treat this with caution. However, the Persian name for a cavalry squadron is a dirafsh. I wonder if there is a connection, or that this is simply another case of a "Volksetymologie".
I suspect the head of the draco standard was not originally a wolf, but a senmurv, a mythical creature with the head of a dog, claws and wings of a bird, and a huge tail with a squirrel tilt.
Robert, do you know who actually started the wind-sock theory? I have always liked it, but I never found a source that seems to be its origin.
