Login

Crispvs · 02-11-2004, 12:59 AM

I have to admit that it looks nice. I stand by what I said about type B belt plates above, but even I would have to admit that it would take a good deal of care and skill (and time) to produce the flanked bust or wolf and twins motifs using the original technique and this would probably push the price up. Even Holgar Ratsdorf's plates are usually cast, although he will make them using the assumed original technique, as long as you are willing to pay a bit extra. Within our own ranks we have quite a lot of cast type B plates featuring these motifs and they have always looked rather good. Although on one hand I am against the perpetuation of the cast type B plate myth, on the other hand there is one cast example (caveat noted above) showing acanthus leaves and so justification can be found. Still, as I said, it does look nice and I would not look away if it walked by me. 
 
Crispvs

Matthew Amt · 02-11-2004, 03:47 PM

Avete! 
Rusty, I got your email with the detail photos of your new belt, and this seems as good a place as any for a critique. Overall, I like it. Good buckle, great frogs, and the plates look good (though I agree with Crispus' feelings above--more in a moment). 
 
Most of my gripes are with the apron. I would go with just 4 straps rather than 5, and there should be no gaps between them. (I usually just take a 4" wide piece and cut slits, leaving them joined at the very top which is behind the belt.) The studs are fine, though I'm sure none of us would mind if they were a little thinner, like the originals, if we could GET thinner ones!! The terminals are odd--the crescents are a little extreme, i.e., the opening should be smaller. Rather than riveting a loop on the top, better just to have a tab which is folded over. Those ovalish strap ends are wacky, too! Better to use a rectangle with 2 rivets, and a small slot at the bottom for the terminal's tab. I found that it looks more elegant to taper the strap end a little, like the Tekije pieces. Mine are shown here: 
 
www.larp.com/legioxx/apron.jpg 
 
Though now that I look at it again, those aren't really tapered! But they are narrower than a full inch, since the strap tapers to meet them. 
 
Now, on the subject of cast plates that should be stamped, and vice versa::: 
 
Why the heck should stamping plates be expensive? Take one of those cast ones, back it with a thick steel plate or block (1/4" or more), and use it as a die to stamp out as many sheet plates as you need! That's essentially what I did--my wife made clay mockups of several dies, about a half-inch thick, and we sent them to a foundry to have them cast in brass. To make the negative of each die, I melted lead in a can and floated the brass positive die in it. Once it cools, give a few whacks with a hammer to set it nicely and reinforce the image. Anneal and repolish a bunch of .010" thick brass sheet, cut out the blanks you need (leaving space at each end to be folded back). (If you want them tinned, do that now.) Place a blank on the negative die, line up the positive, give a few taps to make sure it's in place, then half a dozen good thumps (I use a 3-pound hammer). No problem! Anything more high-tech than this will just give better results. And it's CHEAP! Cost for the dies won't be much more than for one of those cast plates, lead tire weights from the street gutters are free, and you can get enough .010" brass for a belt from a hobby shop for less than 2 bucks. And people actually charge MORE for these things than for cast ones??? Wacky! Now I will say that it can take a little finagling to get the impression in the negative die just right. I tried to have a brass negative made for one type, and it really doesn't work well. But it does give some extra details in some spots, so I use it to touch up the plates after stamping in the lead block. With my Emperor-and-Cornucopia die, the hair and the grapes don't come out well, so I lay each stamped plate on the positive die and go over it with the corner of a piece of lead to bring out the detail. Still only takes a few seconds per plate. HAS to be easier than casting them all! 
 
By the way, I did sell dies for two different plates to Albion Armorers over a year ago, and they have yet to use them. Call them and start bugging them for stamped plates! 
 
Gotta run! But we're getting there, I think. Valete, 
 
Matthew/Quintus

02-11-2004, 06:12 PM

could I get some opinions on this balteus? 
 
<img src="http://www.chainmailstore.com/uploads/asembelt4.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

FlaviusCrispus · 02-11-2004, 06:41 PM

Nice early second-century belt! Especially like the short apron. 
 
Looks like the Albion belt plates, am I correct? 
 
Good job on the frogs and lunates. Matt might note that the apron straps are a little far apart, but you won't hear me say it 
 
Wearing this, you would fit right in with Leg VI VPF (Californiensis)! 
 
 
T. Flavius Crispus

rusty myers · 02-11-2004, 10:10 PM

Thanks for the constructive criticism, I will see what we can do about the points you made. 
 
Rusty 
 
At least we are headed the right direction!!

02-11-2004, 11:03 PM

Quote:<hr>Looks like the Albion belt plates, am I correct?<hr> 
 
No, the plates are hand made by yours truly, as is every component on the belt.

FlaviusCrispus · 02-12-2004, 01:25 AM

Rustincus-- 
 
I'm impressed. Nice work! How did you stamp the belt plates? 
 
T. Flavius Crispus

02-12-2004, 02:30 AM

Quote:<hr>How did you stamp the belt plates?<hr> 
We managed to get a die made, and we stamp them using a shop hydraulic press. I have recently lost access to the machine shop due to layoff, but I managed to get a 4 ton bench hydraulic press just today. the only tools I need now are punches for 1 1/4 " circle, and 1" circle. I have temporary access to these tools but I'm looking for a more permanent solution. 
If you would lke to see pictures of other things I have made send me an e-mail, and I'll e-mail you back.

02-12-2004, 05:12 AM

He's one of my guys Flavius! You should see his hamata...does pretty good caligae too. And he cooks a great breakfast... 
 
Wait a minute... Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I 
 
"Lay your hand, or thy tongue against the greatness of Rome, and feel my wrath." - Matt Lanteigne 
 
- Number of posts: current +1248

Matthew Amt · 02-12-2004, 08:42 PM

Ave, Rustius! 
Almost confused you with Rusty of SOTW for a moment, there. Got your email the other day with the photos of this belt and the others. 
 
Overall, they look great! VERY nice plates, and it is good to see more ring motif plates. They'd certainly be the common type in your period. Nice studs and great terminals on the apron, too. I tend to to with longer strap ends, but I don't think the short ones are wrong, and they look well done. 
 
It's a little hard to see the buckle on the one you posted above, but it looks like the best of the bunch. One of the others looked kind of squarish. (I know, making buckles is a pain! Always looking for new sources for good cast ones.) 
 
The frogs are also a little "off" in shape, to my eye, but I'm not sure what you might be copying them from. I just think they should be a little more slender and elegant. The discs on them are good. Again, making frogs is a pain. I had been trying to make a die for stamping discs with concentric rings on them, but haven't had much success yet. 
 
Basically, keep up the good work! 
 
Vale, 
 
Matthew/Quintus, Leg XX 
 
PS: What's for breakfast?

02-13-2004, 03:46 AM

Quote:<hr>PS: What's for breakfast? <hr> 
The usual, hash browns, bacon(crispy), scrambled eggs, two pan cakes with syrup, toast and jam, with orange and tomato slices on the side....how would you like your coffee? 
 
Thanks for the critique Quintus! I sent you updated versions of the frogs and buckles.

03-03-2004, 05:04 PM

Before we dismiss the new Deepeeka belt entirely, it appears to be a copy of an Ermine Street Guard belt shown on page 62 of Graham Sumner's excellent book "Roman Army- Wars of the Empire" and in other ESG-linked books- eg a booklet on Caerleon.Also at www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/Meg...in_gif.htm and (a bit blurry) at www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/Equ...pg_jpg.htm (I have also tried to post the image below) 
 
Deepeeka seem to have mistaken the lunate and created it as one piece, rather than a crescent with a dangly bit (technical term ), but this is easy to rectify. Deepeeka produce two versions of their belt- one with niello (as the ESG version) and "enamelling" , one plain. 
 
Now, the ESG may not be the fount of all wisdom, but they do have a fearsome reputation for researching and putting out accurate kit. If there are any ESG members lurking there, could you comment? 
 
Cheers, 
 
Paulus 
 
 
<img src="http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/MegaArchive/pages/Copy%20of%20middlewichmartin_gif.htm" style="border:0;"/>

Matthew Amt · 03-07-2004, 02:52 AM

Okay, I'm looking at that photo in Sumner's book right now. That does seem to be what Deepeeka had in mind for their AH3868 belt, but it is NOT a good copy. 
 
On the ESG's version, the plates are cast (probably very close to the originals) with the design formed by recesses in the surface which are filled (inlaid) with niello or something black. This looks very accurate to me. The Deepeeka plates, last I saw, were stamped out of sheet brass, and the design was approximated by a raised grid, sort of. Not correct. 
 
The ESG's apron has cast plates at the top and bottom of each apron strap, inlaid with black and blue enamel. Plates like that have been excavated, and reliefs do suggest that they were used at least at the tops of the apron straps sometimes. So again I'd say "correct". Not sure about using them at the bottom as a strap end, but I can live with it. Deepeeka's apron plates are again thin brass sheet, though wider and less elegant, with the design formed by open diamond-shaped holes. Not even close. 
 
The ESG's apron studs are slightly domed discs, plain brass, presumably fixed by a central shank at the back which is peened like a rivet. Most original studs seem to have been flat, but domed ones do exist, so no problem. Deepeeka uses little square plates with a raised shallow dome, held in place by 4 rivets, at the corners. No resemblence to any artifact or depiction that I've ever seen. 
 
I can't quite make out the pugio frogs on the Deepeeka belt, but as I recall they aren't bad. Nice buckle, too. 
 
The danglies on the Deepeeka apron are just a different form than the more complex lunate style, but not bad in appearance. I am a little dubious about the system of rings that they and the ESG use to fix them to the strap end plates, but I guess it's better than connecting them directly to the leather. Minor gripe. 
 
Oh, and I do think the ESG apron is too long--it should not extend below the tunic hem. 
 
My conclusion on Deepeeka AH3868--Geez, I wish Hollywood would use something this good! But I wouldn't let any of my own troops wear it. It just doesn't measure up. 
 
I wish Deepeeka would sell loose buckles and frogs!! 
 
Vale, 
 
Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX

Login
Username:
Password:	Lost Password?
	Remember me