The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy?

[Vindex]

Gentlemen

Although this is an interesting thread and provoking some good discussion, may I please ask you to be more circumspect and respectful in your choice of words when disagreeing with comments made.

Everyone is entitled to a view whether you agree with it or not and reasoned debate is more likely to add to your argument than negativity and personal comments.

[diegis]

Gentlemen

Although this is an interesting thread and provoking some good discussion, may I please ask you to be more circumspect and respectful in your choice of words when disagreeing with comments made.

Everyone is entitled to a view whether you agree with it or not and reasoned debate is more likely to add to your argument than negativity and personal comments.

Salve Vindex, and i appologize if i "jumped over the fence" in some instances

[diegis]

And now something to tease a little my friend Frostwulf :-)

Paulus Orosius
https://sites.google.com/site/demontorto...sius_book1

<<On the contrary, recently these Getae, who are at present also called Goths (Alexander publicly said that they must be shunned, Pyrrhus dreaded them, and even Caesar avoided them), after stripping their homes bare and abandoning them, united their forces in one body and invaded the Roman provinces. By proving themselves to be a menace over a long period of time, these barbarians hoped upon their request to obtain an alliance with Rome—an alliance which they could have won by force of arms.>>

Vergilius - Aeneid
http://www.theoi.com/Text/VirgilAeneid3.html

<< Pondering much in heart, I prayed to woodland Nymphs, and father Gradivus, who rules over the Getic fields>>

Gradivus is a surname of Mars

Vegetius - De re militari - Military matters
http://www.sonshi.com/vegetius1-23.html

<<And it is well known that the warlike dispositions of the Dacians, Moesians and Thracians gave rise to the fable that Mars was born among them.>>

Ovid - Among the Getae (Book TV.VII:1-68)
http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR...oc34217359

<<There’s not one among them who doesn’t carry
bow, quiver, and arrows pale yellow with viper’s gall:
Harsh voices, grim faces, the true image of Mars,
neither beard or hair trimmed, hands not slow
to deal wounds with the ever-present knife
that every barbarian carries, strapped to his side..........They keep off the evils of cold with pelts
and loose trousers, shaggy faces hidden in long hair.>>

Now compare with what Tacitus said about the Germanic "barbarians"

http://elfinspell.com/OggCh1.html

<<All have fierce blue eyes, reddish hair, and huge bodies fit only for sudden exertion. They are not very able to endure labor that is exhausting. Heat and thirst they cannot withstand at all, though to cold and hunger their climate and soil have hardened them............... Iron is not plentiful among them, as may be inferred from the nature of their weapons.7 Only a few make use of swords or long lances. Ordinarily they carry a spear (which they call a framea), with a short and narrow head, but so sharp and easy to handle that the same weapon serves, according to circumstances, for close or distant conflict.>>

It looks like the real "boogeyman" in ancient times was Getae/Dacians, who not only that was depicted as terryfing and was considered that Mars himself was born among them and rule their lands, but it really made Alex the Great, Pyrrhus (also called "the new Alexander") and Caesar to avoid them or even feel scared of them :twisted:

[Nathan Ross]

Going from Tapae to Sarmizegetusa it takes maybe 2 days... it will take little effort to go to Dacian capital, even if not conquering, bt at least lay a short siege and show to enemy who's the boss.

As far as I know, we don't have a definite location for Tapae. But we could assume that it's somewhere in the narrow valley between Bucova and Zeicani. From the midpoint here to Sarmizegetusa Regia is about 40 miles. Roman troops could cover 20 (Roman) miles a day on good roads, but advancing into enemy territory they would apparently cover more like 10 miles a day, on the evidence of camps in Scotland. Since this territory was the heartland of the Dacian kingdom, and the last part was hill country with at least one large fort (Piatra Rosie) covering the western approaches to Sarmizegetusa (itself a strong fortification), an advance here towards the close of the campaign season with the prospect of a siege (however 'short') at the end of it would be no small undertaking.

In fact, Julianus' campaign, from what we know of it, resembles Trajan's first advance in AD101: a river crossing near Viminacium, passage through the Banat region to the Iron Gates, battle at Tapae, forward reconnaissance and then withdrawal to winter camps. Roman armies seldom made winter camps right at the frontline of newly captured territory, but rather pulled back to previously established positions. Julianus' withdrawal, therefore, was standard procedure.

The story in Dio of the 'wooden army' sounds fantastical, and I doubt it was intended to 'comfort badly wounded pride', as it makes the Romans appear ridiculous! Whether it was based on some real event (dummies placed on the walls of a fort, perhaps?) or not we don't know. We also don't know whether Julianus and/or Domitian actually intended a further advance into Dacia or not at this date. But either way, I don't think we need to look for additional reasons why Julianus did not continue his advance much beyond Tapae itself: he clearly believed that a battle won was sufficient to satisfy his mandate at that point.

Incidentally, the majority of casualties in ancient battle seem to have occurred after the fighting, during the retreat and rout. We see this at, for example, Mons Graupius. At Tapae, the ability of the Romans to follow up on a Dacian defeat would have been hampered by the close terrain - the Dacians could retreat safely for some distance along the narrows and up into the hills and so conserve much of their strength. (This is a point made by, I think, MacKendrick in The Dacian Stones Speak). So a Roman victory at Tapae, however definite, may not have been as crushing as they would have liked.

175,000 soldiers from Strobel... Michael Schmitz... mention 14 legions of 27 the empire had back then, plus 60,000 auxiliar troops... If you put the legion as the usual war number of troops, so around 6,000 soldiers, you may reack a close number

But (again) what sources do these authors give for their figures? What evidence? As I've said before, many of them are relying on previous estimates, which are rather more cautious. The only evidence for legion numbers comes from inscriptions and from Trajan's Column. Based on the inscriptional evidence, I would estimate a maximum of ten legions involved in Trajan's 105-106 campaign: at least two of these, and probably more, were at vexillation strength.

Auxiliary numbers are actually easier (at least in theory) to determine approximately, as we have diplomas giving troop listings for Moesia before the conflict and Dacia after it. Based on these, I would estimate 5-6 cavalry alae (one - Flavia Britannica - milliarian), plus around 5 milliarian and 26 quingenary infantry cohorts.

Legion strength on paper at this date was probably closer to 5000 men, but few units were at full strength at any point. But assuming they were, with six full legions and four vexillations, and all the auxiliary cohorts and alae at full regulation size, and adding three praetorian cohorts and some equites singulares, we have a total army in AD106 of 60-65,000 men. A very reasonable figure, I'd say: the emperor Julian invaded Persia with an army of that size 250 years later!

[Marja]

Can anyone recommend a good intro to Dacian society, social structure, economy, etc.?

One that distinguishes relatively solid knowledge from speculation?

[Nathan Ross]

Can anyone recommend a good intro to Dacian society, social structure, economy, etc.?

MacKendrick's The Dacian Stones Speak, mentioned above, is actually a pretty good primer on ancient Dacia generally, although it dates from 1975 and keeps Trajan's war centre stage.

Hanson's Roman Dacia: the making of a provincial society (Journal of Roman Archaeology 2004) is brief but detailed, by a very credible author. The focus, as the title suggests, is mainly on the Romanisation of the province rather than the pre-Roman indigenous peoples.

Ioana Oltean's Dacia: Landscape, Colonization, Romanization (2007) builds on Hanson's work but concentrates on native settlements in a single area, going deeply into the archaeology and ethnography.

[diegis]

Salve to all and Happy New Year

Dont have much time (or mood to search more sources now and still with some glass of wine in front) now, but about the number of soldiers to be used by Romans, we have another number offered by Appianus, regarding the army planned by Caesar for his campaign against Dacians

Appianu - THe Civila Wars - Book II.110

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Ro...rs/2*.html

<< And now Caesar, either renouncing his hope, or being tired out, and wishing by this time to avoid this plot and odium, or deliberately giving up the city to certain of his enemies, or hoping to cure his bodily ailment of epilepsy and convulsions, which came upon him suddenly and especially when he was inactive, conceived the idea of a long campaign against the Getae and the Parthians. The Getae, a hardy, warlike, and neighbouring nation, were to be attacked first. The Parthians were to be punished for their perfidy toward Crassus. He sent across the Adriatic in advance sixteen legions of foot and 10,000 horse. >>

If the first time when he was just the governor of Ilyria (a province plundered by Getae right at the same time) and Gallia Cisalpina and Transalpina Caesar was afraid and avoided the confrontation with Dacians (chosing to go in Galia in his quest for glory and money), when he became the sole ruler of Rome and Dictator (unofficial emperor we can say) he planned finally a campaign against them.
Having this time the entire Roman Republic (already on the verge to be rebranded as Empire) behind, he assembled an army of 16 legions and 10,000 cavalrymen for attack against Dacia, which was about as close as much as Trajan i think. Probably Caesar would make use of auxiliars too of course, as it was the norm and those 16 legions and cavalry was send in the Balkans just in advance of his arrival.

The size of this army show the difficulties he thought he will face in that war. However, back then Dacia itself becamed a proto-empire under Burebista rule, having the possibility to raise an army of 200,000 warriors according to Strabon.

Anyway, both Caesar and imediatly after him Burebista was assasinated by their own people, so a possible even bigger war betwen Romans and Dacians was postponed until Trajan vs Decebalus confrontation

[Nathan Ross]

he assembled an army of 16 legions and 10,000 cavalrymen for attack against Dacia, which was about as close as much as Trajan i think.

Well, that is indeed a lot of legions, and kudos for finding the quote!

However, I would (of course!) add some caveats:

1. Appian is clear that this army was intended to invade Parthia after attacking the Getae. Therefore the size of the force does not reflect the needs of a Getic war alone, but a lengthy continued campaign.

2. Caesar had a lot of legions available to him after the civil wars - his own, plus most of Pompey's. But we know from Caesar's writings that legions of his day seldom numbered the assumed 5-6 thousand of later times. In some cases they were only a few thousand strong. So the number of legions cannot easily be used to calculate the size of the army.

3. While Caesar did use irregular auxiliaries (Gallic and German cavalry, Cretan archers etc), the regular auxiliary cohorts and alae of the empire did not yet exist in his day. In this case, the ten thousand cavalry were the auxiliaries, more or less. If we can assume that imperial armies comprised a 50/50 division of legionaries and auxiliaries (not certain, but plausible), then an imperial force undertaking the same expedition would only have required half the number of legions, with auxiliaries making up the rest. In other words - 8 legions!

Anyway, as I've said we have no concrete evidence of the total numbers of Trajan's or any other imperial expedition into Dacia. But I'd still like to know what primary source the figures of 13-16 legions are based on...

;-)

[Flavivs Aetivs]

A little off topic, but regarding the size of the legion weren't some of the Limitanei legions 3000 men strong?

Also, what was the average size of a legion around the time of Caesar? My knowledge pre-400 AD is fuzzy compared to you guys.

[Marja]

There's an ongoing debate over the standard strength, if there was any standard strength, of the legions of the limitanei. Jones suggested 3,000, based largely on the number of bases some of the legions were divided among, and on a few ambiguous papyri. Treadgold suggested 1,000.

The Marian legion had 10 cohorts of 6 centuries each, and at some point the 1st cohort was increased to 5 or 6 double centuries, thus a nominal strength of 4,800 to 5,280 legionaries and according to Roth 1,200 to 1,320 camp servants, with campaign strengths falling short of that. The Augustan legion included 10 cohorts, with the expanded 1st cohort, as well as legionary cavalry. As the legions were divided along the frontiers, I think the earliest use of vexillationes from one province to support operations out of another province was an Augustan innovation.

[Nathan Ross]

what was the average size of a legion around the time of Caesar?

I suspect there was no average size. Legions at this date were raised as c.4800 men (no legion cavalry, and the double first cohort was probably a Flavian innovation), but they were not officially standing formations and so were not reinforced. Numbers would drop considerably over service - Caesar's veteran sixth legion were down to less than a thousand men after five years service, but he still called them a legion. Many of the legions he 'inherited' at the end of the civil wars were rather shambolic, originally formed from prisoners of war, non-citizen provincials and even illegally freed slaves.

But my point was merely that numbers of legions in the late republic cannot be directly compared to those of the principiate, which were (comparatively!) more stable formations.

[Frostwulf]

Merry Christmas and happy new year to you as well diegis.

This is a useless and complicated way to tell me that isnt any primary source talking about any ambush. There are just interpretations, i can come even with some talking about Cornelius Fuscus being defeated and killed at Adamclisi and others who talk about another route he took, along Olt river valley (so not at Tapae)

I readily admit I don't know where they are getting this unless it's from when Dio says that Decebalus is good at ambushes. Regardless I haven't read all the sources and I can only assume they have, but are there not quite a few who make the statement that Fuscus was ambushed? As I have mentioned before even Michael Schmitz says this is the case and I tend to think Strobel would say this as well.

I think you have little idea about the geography here. Going from Tapae to Sarmizegetusa it takes maybe 2 days. Having Dacian army so badly crushed (as Roman propaganda and you seem to believe) in late August or early September (as Domitian received the salutation in September) it will take little effort to go to Dacian capital, even if not conquering, bt at least lay a short siege and show to enemy who's the boss.
It is ilogical as well to assume that Romans started the campaign to conquer Dacia right before the end of the season.

The last salutation was in October, which leaves him very little time to retire back to safe ground. If he was to take 2 days to Sarmizegetusa and then 1 day to battle and then 2 more days back to Tapae, that's is 5 more days. Are you really going to add that amount of time(possibly more)to the time it takes to exit hostile territory(both terrain and enemy)when the campaign season is already over? Weather and supply would also make a big impact at this time. You also have to take into consideration what Nathan Ross wrote.

So, you either believe what Cassius said, that Tetius Iulianus was tricked by Decebalus, and Romans was scared and turn around. Or, more logical, that Iulianus made a surprise raid near the end of the season in order to revenge Fuscus defeat and show to Dacians that Romans are still able to fight back.
Dacians was surprised by Roman advance and managed to gather a small army made from local garrisons and some locals there, who tried to block the Romans at Tapae until the main army will start forming under Decebalus comand.

First of all, Fuscus probably used another route, not trough Tapae, and he was expected by Dacians as he and Domitian just managed to push the Dacian army out of Moesia. Trajan invasion was again expected as Roman preparations at Danube took a long time and included even engineering works on Danube course.
Tettius advance didnt take much, from Roman borders to Tapae it didnt take you more then 3 days maybe. As Dacians didnt had a huge professional standing army, it was required time to gather the main army. So Iulianus meet more then probably just the local garrisons from the fortresses and towns near the Sarmizegetusa (obviously the capital and sourounding fortresses kept much of their garrisons in case they would be besieged).

The Romans usually wrote when they tried to surprise someone, just like they did the Chatti, nothing of this sort is mentioned by Dio of the Dacians, but he says so of the Chatti.
Second is the Dacians had to have known the Romans were gearing up for revenge by the amount of men coming into the area, Decebaulus was hardly incompetent. He would have seen the training and gearing up for this event.
Third is it really possible for 20,000 or so Roman soldiers to have gone unnoticed through this type of terrain? I think not, just as Trajan and Fuscus they would have seen TJ coming and prepared for him.

Romans scored a tactical victory (probably sufering heavy losses to, which stop them to go further) and then retreated back to their forts in the empire.
To comfort their badly wounded pride they make this raid too look as a big victory in their imperial propaganda and to explain the fact they didnt advanced to meet the main DAcian army or at least to see the Sarmizegetusa walls they come with that strange explanation with a forest cut by Decebalus and trees dressed in armors and looking as real Dacian soldiers. This may make sense for military uneducated people at Rome, but is very weird for someone who know a little about armies and wars. I mean, they surely can send some scouts to see whats about exactly with that unflinching Dacian army in front of them, even as just to be sure that army dont chase them back to attack again the empire

Yet these same Romans soldiers of Julianus were fighting the Marcomanni/Quadi/Sarmatians right after Tettius Julianus crushed the Dacians. Hardly a smart move if your army had been badly mauled, and these battles continued on and off till 97. Again why would they send scouts if it was to late in the season to continue the campaign?

He wanted to show off in Rome as a great general too, after few disasters. And as Dacians was too dangerous then, he chosed a lesser danger, Marcomani, who he thought can defeat more easily

So Domitian had just crushed the Dacians at Tapae, then he loses against the Marcomanni/Sarmatians and your saying the Dacians who just lost are more dangerous then the ones who just defeated Domitian? Really?

Yes, there was plans for Dacia, but you realize that you shoot in your foot (figuratively speaking) with this qoute? Bennett just say that Domitian want to get rid of some less important but annoying problem, so he can focus on the really big one. Thats why Suebic-Sarmatic one was just a preliminary, how he said, something to do before get on the main thing

Bennett said no such thing, neither did Jones or Southern. What was said is that Domitian didn't want a two front war. Domitian had to crush the Marcomanni/Sarmatians because he was afraid they were preparing to attack, hence the build up prior to the Dacian war. Domitian probably figured he had to take care of the Suebi/Sarmatians first, the mop up the Dacians later. This of course proved to be wrong because the war with the Suebi/Sarmatians was not to end until 97.

Saturninus revolt was resolved quickly in same year, even without Domitian reached there. Marcomani was resolved too, and they never threatened the empire borders anyway and even asked for peace.
Is just that Domitian need time to preapre for such big war with Dacians, and was affected too by the important losses suffered

Saturninus was resolved relatively quickly but your just wrong about the Marcomanni/Sarmatians. You ever hear of the legion Rapax? Again there were conflicts up till 97. Are you saying Pannonia wasn't threatened? Yes the Marcomanni did ask for peace, just like Decebalus did:

Domitian, having been defeated by the Marcomani, took to flight, and hastily sending messages to Decebalus, king of the Dacians, induced him to make a truce, though he himself had hitherto refused to grant one in response to the frequent requests of Decebalus. And so Decebalus accepted his overtures, for he had suffered grievous hardships; yet he did not wish to hold a conference with Domitian personally, but instead sent Diegis with the men, to give him the arms and a few captives, who, he pretended, were the only ones that he had.

The grievous hardships were obviously from the great number of Dacians slain.

Beside the 175,000 soldiers from Strobel? Well, we can quote for example Michael Schmitz - "The Dacian Threat", you know the book. Look at pag. 15 and see he mention 14 legions of 27 the empire had back then, plus 60,000 auxiliar troops, and this without to put too the irregular troops raised just for these wars.

If you put the legion as the usual war number of troops, so around 6,000 soldiers, you may reack a close number

The 14 legions were from the second war, not the 1st. This again supports what I was saying about numbers of legions not really mattering much. Decebalus was much weaker for the second war with Trajan, yet Trajan possibly brought more men in(would have to see Michael Schmitz footnotes on that).

I am sorry, i dont see anything thrustfull in that Blanchard quote or what you show me. To say 2 legions is a large army is laughable, sorry to say that. To think someone tried to invade Dacia with the intent of conquering with just 2 legions is hilarious.
Just look again at Trajan army and see the huge difference

No one said Fuscus was out to conquer Dacia. You did point out about Domitian "wishing to have" 5 legions. I'm sure Domitian did want 5 legions in Moeisha, but he didn't have them, he wished he did have them. Even if 5 legions were available, do you really think they would leave both Moesia's without protection? If you read the conclusion of your source, the auxiliary units arrived "after the victory by L.Funisulanus Vettonianus", therefore after Fuscus went into Dacia. Also of note, Domitian according to Bennett,Southern,Jones,Wilkes and quite a few more say that Domitian divided Moesia into 2 after the Fuscus incident, not before. This is borne out in detail by Jones and Southern using salutations and other means. This means there were only 3 legions in Moesia as the other 3 didn't arrive until the division of Moesia.


Once again using your source:

"Oppius Sabinus, a man of consular rank, and Cornelius Fuscus, the praetorian prefect, were slain with large armies by the Dacians." >>

So Eutropius equates Sabinus and Fuscus both having "large armies", yet we know that:

Strobel argues instead for summer 85, and reconstructs a timetable which takes into account Domitians’s two Imperial salutations between September 85 when he was still IMP IX and February 86, by which time he was IMP XI. According to Strobel’s argument, Diurpaneus crossed the Danube in June 85, Oppius Sabinus mobilized V Macedonial from Oescus and I Italica from Movae, met the Dacians and defeat simultaneously, and news of the disaster reached Rome in July. Domitian and Fuscus mobilized an pushed the Dacians back by October, resulting in two Imperial salutations at very close intervals in September and October 85. At the same time, Domitian became censor for life. Pg96

In 84 CE Oppius Sabinus, Governor of Moesia, moved an army into the Dobrogea region to counter a threat by the Dacians, which had once more crossed the Danube. With the I Italica and a strong vexillation from the V Macedonia along with a collection of auxilia, he met the Dacians near Novae and was destroyed.

You can say you don't trust Blanchard, but those are the only two legions there, and that's what Eutropius calls a "large army".

One last thing, and what I consider the most important. I read some of the comments I made to you and some of them were uncalled for, my apologies for that. I do enjoy debating with you but some of the time it's frustrating. It is still no excuse for some of what I wrote.

[Frostwulf]

Once again time didn't allow me to continue, so I will now.

It looks like the real "boogeyman" in ancient times was Getae/Dacians, who not only that was depicted as terryfing and was considered that Mars himself was born among them and rule their lands, but it really made Alex the Great, Pyrrhus (also called "the new Alexander") and Caesar to avoid them or even feel scared of them :twisted:

The first quote(which includes the above quote)with Paulus Orosius has no bearing considering he is referring mostly to Goths. For the rest of the quotes, I have no problem with. I have said multiple times the Dacians were a tough and martial people, I just don't put them at the level you do. The type of quotes you put down are easy to come by for most peoples of the time:

7 and there were also picked foreign horsemen, who were given the name of Batavians, after the island of Batavia in the Rhine, inasmuch as the Batavians are excellent horsemen. 8 I can not, however, give their exact number any more than I can that of the Evocati. These last-named Augustus began to make a practice of employing from the time when he called again into service against Antony the troops who had served with his father, and he maintained them afterwards; they constitute even now a special corps, and carry rods, like the centurions. Pg.55,24,7

“Our men started asking questions and the Gauls and traders replied by describing how tall and strong the Germans were, how unbelievably brave and skillful with weapons. Often, they claimed, when they had met the Germans in battle they had been unable to stand even the way they looked, the sternness of their gaze. Book 1.39 Carolyn Hammond.

There are many more of such quotes from many sources not of just Germani, but of Sarmatians, Celts, Spaniards, etc. etc.

[Frostwulf]

Can anyone recommend a good intro to Dacian society, social structure, economy, etc.?

One that distinguishes relatively solid knowledge from speculation?

Vasile Lica-“The Coming of Rome in the Dacian World” is an excellent book for the time frame involving Rome, as those also mentioned by Nathan Ross.

[Frostwulf]

Having this time the entire Roman Republic (already on the verge to be rebranded as Empire) behind, he assembled an army of 16 legions and 10,000 cavalrymen for attack against Dacia, which was about as close as much as Trajan i think. Probably Caesar would make use of auxiliars too of course, as it was the norm and those 16 legions and cavalry was send in the Balkans just in advance of his arrival.

I don't recall exactly where (Goldsworthy) was saying something about the 16 legions were actually not slotted to go there. Regardless:

In these circumstances Caesar's 'proposed' Dacian campaign appear not merely credible but almost inevitable'. Syme also stresses the fact that even if Burebista were removed and the threat to Italy averted, Caesar's proposed campaigns in the Balkans would not lose their justification...Burebista or not Burebista, this would have to be done sooner or later'.
The accurate examination of Caesar’s military disposition and the number and distribution of the legions made Syme conclude that ‘the army of six legions in Macedonia would be adequate for any operations in the Balkans: and the fact that there were fewer legions available in Macedonia than in all the eastern provinces taken together is really no evidence that the expedition against the Dacians was thought of as easier then or subordinate to the proposed Parthian campaign’. Pg89

As shown by Tettius Julianus, Dacia didn't need the extreme amount of legions to defeat, and Syme points out that Julius Caesar needed only ‘the army of six legions' for Dacia. I'll have to check on the 16 legions.