Anti-Cavalry Barrier....

[Alexius]

Dear Valerius,

Thanks to this opinons exchange I´m loving more this Forun – I´m to “practicalâ€Â

[Caius Fabius]

It depends on the motivation of the rider and the training of the horse. I suspect that the recorded instances of cavalry breaking formed infantry usually were more about morale than anything. If the infantry was very well trained, they would hold position, if not, when they broke, they were destroyed. If the cavalry morale broke first, they turned away at the last moment. If 1800+ pounds of dead or dying horse charging forward falls into a group of formed men, they may not stay formed, (look at the tactic of using heavy chariots with scythes).

It makes sense to soften up the formed infantry with missile weapons before charging them. This was something that changed a great deal during the black powder age, when the infantry had longer range than the cavalry.

Mention was made of the Crimean War. There were interesting accounts, of cavalry vs. cavalry, where heavy cavalry pushed through light cavalry at a walk, with most of the injuries being to the arms and heads of the riders on both sides, (the Russian cavalry was wearing overcoats, which the British said protected them from the saber cuts). There was a feint of a couple of Russian light cavalry squadrons against the Highlanders, which was called off due to the British rifles' range. Then there was the suicidal charge against the Cossack battery, which was carried by the high morale of the men and training of the horses, but which accomplished nothing beyond a slight tactical moment, BUT broke the morale of Russian cavalrymen so that they were unwilling to attack British or French Cavalry for the remainder of the campaign. The French Cavalry at the same time forced Russian infantry and artillery troops to withdraw and actually saved the day, which is rarely told in the British written stories, but evident from Russian accounts.

The Napoleonic War accounts and diaries offer similar situations, where the morale of the horsemen and the training of the horse is most important when the trying to figure out what made a cavalry charge against formed infantry successful. Can we use this to say whether or not cavalry would attack formed infantry in the pre-black-powder period? Alexander of Macedon did it. Scipio's cavalry attacked the Carthaginians, Hannibal's cavalry attacked the Romans, ..... it was done, if you believe the writings of the ancient historians.

Can we do it today? I doubt we'll ever train infantry reenactors to risk death and maiming, or convince cavalry reenactors to destroy their horses to prove the point one way or another. The books and surviving training manuals prove it did happen, what more do you need?

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

actually, I have to agree with alexius. my own experience? no, but the experience as related to me by a senior lieutenant of soviet cavalry.

In the battle around kharkov they were riding highly trained budyonny mounts, which had been trained for military application. They ran into a unit of either slovak or romanian infantry with fixed bayonets, as was common practice for many nations still. they charged with sabres firing pistols (and one man with a PPSH from a mounted arty unit) and the infantry who had tried to form up in defence were firing with fixed bayonets, and then defending with bayonets when they got close. in short the bayonets didnt stop the horses, nor did the body of men, nor the report of rifles. an observation he made though is that they seemed not to kill as many with weapons as just disorganize and throw back the infantry in confusion.

they were stopped by a panzer soon thereafter and the horses mostly killed.

trained horses can take out infantry formations, no doubt about it. IF they did it the way the soviets did, and if the roman breeds were as tough as the budyonny is another story.

[Robert Vermaat]

trained horses can take out infantry formations, no doubt about it. IF they did it the way the soviets did, and if the roman breeds were as tough as the budyonny is another story.

I agree with you, horses can surely ride down infantry, and they sure can be used in shock tactics. My point is though that cavalry a) was not used usually in suicide attacks which had no guarantee of prevailing and b) that well-trained infantry can stand its ground.

But then the Romanians were probably not ranked at least 4 deep with anything longer than their rifles fixed into the ground, or even expecting the Soviets to ride over them. The fact that this was more a rather unusual encounter strengthens my belief that a) trained infantry (I mean anti-cavalry trained) would in all probability not have broken so easily and b) trained cavalry would not have expected them to break - so probably they would have approached them more cautious.

Ancient cavalry was surely used to break up enemy formations head on, but from what I’ve read so far of actual encounters this happened only when the enemy showed weaknesses. Either they showed low moral, were already retreating or in confusion. But if determined, protected and well-trained infantry stood firm, cavalry, armoured or not, stood little chance of overwhelming them. They could not ‘ride them down’, even when outnumbering such a formation.
Unlike Alexius I’m not prepared to dismiss any such reports as unusable because they were written later, not by eyewitnesses or plainly because we ‘know it better’.

[Graham Sumner]

Caius Fabius wrote:

The French Cavalry at the same time forced Russian infantry and artillery troops to withdraw and actually saved the day, which is rarely told in the British written stories, but evident from Russian accounts.

Hello Caius

I am not sure which British accounts that you have read but the classic 'The Reason Why' by C. Woodham-Smith 1957 and the more recent 'Hell Riders', by T. Brighton 2004 both mention the charge by the Chasseurs D'Afrique. While not exactly saving the day their action did eventually take out the right flank of Russian guns saving many British lives during the withdrawal.

Getting back to the topic in question, this thread is getting a bit like the discussion on leather armour with arguments for and against backed up more or less with documented accounts as to whether cavalry can or cannot charge infantry.

I guess in exceptional circumstances anything can happen. In theory the British infantry at Minden should not have charged the French cavalry, the Light Brigade at Balaclava should not have charged the Russian guns nor the Heavy Brigade in the same action charged aginst the Russian cavalry or in more recent times the Australian light horse should not have charged the Turkish lines at Beersheba. In all these cases the morale of one side or the other undoubtedly played a big part but on the whole I would tend to agree with Roberts last comments that determined well trained infantry should have been able to withstand any cavalry attack.

Graham.

[Alexius]

Dear Fellows,

I think the problem about this question it’s the people forgot what is this Forum area…

This Forum its, probability, the world largest forum about the roman times but turned more to the re-enactment.

And this is the central question – what is the re-enactment for you?

For me, the re-enactment it’s â€Â

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Alexandre,

Good point. I think it would be a good idea to re-post this message as the start of a separate thread about the use and misuse of re-enactment and experimental archaeology.
One point I could (and will!) make is about taking the historical sources seriously..

Oh and Alaxandre, could you add your name to your signature please? RAT rules...

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

The fact that this was more a rather unusual encounter strengthens my belief that a) trained infantry (I mean anti-cavalry trained) would in all probability not have broken so easily and b) trained cavalry would not have expected them to break - so probably they would have approached them more cautious.

actually on the contrary, this was a very common early war tactic, and the infantry and cavalry in question were both trained to deal with eachother. but he did lose horses in the attack, it was worth the effect it had though. still, we are only dealing with a single line, so it is not representative of roman tactics.

my suggestion is to try to find a soviet, romanian, italian, or german veteran of cavalry who had a more ancient type experience in a cavalry charge. might want to search veterans of the great patriotic war or some such thing.

[Caius Fabius]

Caius Fabius wrote:

The French Cavalry at the same time forced Russian infantry and artillery troops to withdraw and actually saved the day, which is rarely told in the British written stories, but evident from Russian accounts.

Hello Caius

I am not sure which British accounts that you have read but the classic 'The Reason Why' by C. Woodham-Smith 1957 and the more recent 'Hell Riders', by T. Brighton 2004 both mention the charge by the Chasseurs D'Afrique. While not exactly saving the day their action did eventually take out the right flank of Russian guns saving many British lives during the withdrawal.
.....

Graham.

Yes I have both of those, currently my library has 87 Crimean War books, and I am missing 2 of Kinglake's volumes and count the fiction books by Kilworth in my Crimean collection. Even "Hell Riders" does not give the effect of the French cavalry's charge on the Russian troops, it gets brushed aside as something that was "helpful" to the Light Brigade. Don't get me started on the narcissistic British ancestors who wallow in their fore bearers "glory" and fight about which one is related to the real bugler who blew the "Charge" LOL :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:
Thank goodness I was only doing light research for a trip to the Crimean, and not getting really into the period! (I would have to learn French to really study the period evenly!) When I really choose to study a period, well, I have a good sized library, LOL! hock:

[Caius Fabius]

my suggestion is to try to find a soviet, romanian, italian, or german veteran of cavalry who had a more ancient type experience in a cavalry charge. might want to search veterans of the great patriotic war or some such thing.

While I was stationed at Fort Riley, my next door neighbor was a retired US Cavalry colonel who had been a lieutenant in the Raid into Mexico, chasing Pancho Villa, and then later served in the horse cavalry in the Far East, where Japanese and Chinese used cavalry. He had some interesting stories, I wish I had used a tape recorder when he was sitting there, telling stories over a beer, in the evenings, after work. I hope he found his green pastures in the next life.