01-30-2013, 07:15 AM
This has been transferred from the thread “Roman Cohort Commander.”
Renatus wrote:
It would be dangerous to assume from this that there was any such thing as a cavalry cohort or to ascribe any particular number of men to it.
The term cavalry cohort is also mentioned at 40 4 for the same battle. The battle is set in 423 BC and as the tribes do not increase in size until 406 BC (the increase to six consular tribunes is a clue), I simply work with the old system of 21 tribes. However, the Roman levy system never works on odd numbers, so one tribe is exempt from the levy. As I have stated, cavalry are assigned to centuries and the reference to a cavalry cohort indicates this force which broke through the enemy lines and then occupied a hill has to be large and to be large is has to be equivalent to the number of cavalry assigned to the number of centuries under the command of a military tribune for the size of the army allocated to one consular tribune. However, in the book I word it as “which indicates the cavalry possibly amount to **** men.”
Duncan Campbell has made the claim “The Polybian legion cannot be compared in any detail with the imperial legion…The two are very different, particularly in the make-up of the cavalry component. Polybius' legionary cavalry are provided by the Roman gentry ("equestrians"), and are quite separate from the infantry levy.”
Mr Campbell has not provided any evidence to show that the cavalry of the Polybian legion are not included in the same century as the infantry, and his conclusion is misguided. Out of dozens of examples I have covered in the book, which I have been informed to get rid of some of them, I will chose one from my analyst of the battle of Zama in 202 BC to highlight the fact that during the republic the cavalry were on the same roll as the infantry, which means they belonged to an infantry century.
For the invasion of Africa in 204 BC, Livy stipulates the size of the Roman legion numbered 6200 men and 300 cavalry. The figure of 300 cavalry represents Roman cavalry, not allied. At the battle of Zama, Appian numbers the Roman army at ‘about 23,000 Roman infantry,’ an indication this is slightly short of 23,000 men. Now begins the hard part…by dividing 23,000 infantry by four legions each legion amounts to 5750 men. Roman legion sizes end in round numbers so a legion of 5700 men would be more appropriate. Four legions at 5700 men amounts to 22,800 men. Now are the cavalry included in the 6200 man legion? Appian numbers the Roman cavalry at 2000 men which equates to each legion being assigned 500 men, so:
By adding the 300 Roman cavalry to a Roman legion of 5700 men increases the Roman legion to 6000 men and by further dividing the 6000 men by 60 centuries, a century amounts to 100 men (95 infantry and 5 cavalry per century).
Livy states the Roman cavalry numbered 2200 horse; while another source mentions 35,000 foot and horse embarked for Africa. Livy and Polybius also mention Masinissa providing 6000 infantry and 4000 cavalry. So if we deduct the above figures from 35,000 men, the result is:
The figure of 22,800 men proportionates to Appian’s figure of ‘about 23,000 men,’ and when the 22,800 men is divided by four legions (2 Roman, 2 allied) the result is a legion of 5700 men. The figure of 35,000 men is not the number of men that embarked for Africa as Livy states but the number of men in Africa.
The book then breaks down the organisation of the 5700 men legion and the cavalry numbers given by Appian and Livy. The organisation of the legion basically follows standard Roman practice for this period. However, although it is structured to fight in its standard triple acies, of great interest and another mystery, it is also structured to fight in single acies. The depth is constant, regardless of the troop type when in single acies. I matched the Roman infantry deployment at Zama with the Carthaginian first line of 12,000 men and found the figure of 12,000 men is exact and not rounded. When this is added to the studies of the Trebia, Cannae, Ilipa, the Great Plains and Zama, the Carthaginian army seems to comfortably comply with Hellenistic organisation.
At the battle of Lake Regillus in 496 BC (Dionysius) or 499 BC (Livy) Dionysius claims the Latin army numbered 40,000 men and the Roman army numbered 23,700 men. My reconstructed tribal system shows the Romans are incapable of fielding an army of 23,700 men, and also the Latin levy system which I reconstructed proves the Latin system is identical to the Roman Servian constitutions, also shows the Latins cannot levy 40,000 men. The Roman tribal system under a dictator shows the Roman should have 15,300 infantry at Lake Regillus with each of the three commanders being allocated 5100 infantry. The figure of 23,700 men is an indication of a correct source as it has not been rounded. What has happened is Dionysius or his source has added the size of the Latin army to the Roman army to arrive at 40,000 Latins. So by subtracting 23,700 men from 40,000 the result is 16,300 Romans versus 23,700 Latins. As Dionysius claims the Romans had 1000 cavalry at Lake Regillus, this reduces the Roman army from 16,300 men to 15,300 infantry and 1000 cavalry. This is the only example of my tribal reconstruction coming under threat, but in the end it has been proven correct.
In 192 BC, Livy mentions legions of 5400 men. Now by subtracting the 300 Roman cavalry, the legion numbers 5100 men, which is the same legion size found at Lake Regillus. Because everything is based on the Servian constitution, the legion sizes remain the same but the internal organisation of a legion only changes if the Servian constitution changes. So basically the legion sizes are standardised. But as no historian has undertaken a serious analyst of the army numbers in Livy’s books one to five and Dionysius, how would they know what’s going on?
It’s not just the Servian constitution as given by Livy and Dionysius I work with, it’s the mathematical system of the Roman cosmos that is catalyst for the Servian constitution that I have at my disposal and it is a very powerful tool. This cosmos mathematical system is the mathematical DNA of the Roman system, and it has been discussed by philosophers and astronomers for centuries, yet no one has realised the Romans implemented this mathematical concept to design the Servian constitution. Ancient astronomers also describe the ages of man in relation to the planets and this is also used by the Romans. The military age of the iuniores represents the distance from the planet Venus to Mars, and the seniores, from Mars to Jupiter. Varro claims the seniores were aged to 60 years, but with the ages of the planets, I can show that Varro has rounded his figure to 60 years.
Steven
Renatus wrote:
It would be dangerous to assume from this that there was any such thing as a cavalry cohort or to ascribe any particular number of men to it.
The term cavalry cohort is also mentioned at 40 4 for the same battle. The battle is set in 423 BC and as the tribes do not increase in size until 406 BC (the increase to six consular tribunes is a clue), I simply work with the old system of 21 tribes. However, the Roman levy system never works on odd numbers, so one tribe is exempt from the levy. As I have stated, cavalry are assigned to centuries and the reference to a cavalry cohort indicates this force which broke through the enemy lines and then occupied a hill has to be large and to be large is has to be equivalent to the number of cavalry assigned to the number of centuries under the command of a military tribune for the size of the army allocated to one consular tribune. However, in the book I word it as “which indicates the cavalry possibly amount to **** men.”
Duncan Campbell has made the claim “The Polybian legion cannot be compared in any detail with the imperial legion…The two are very different, particularly in the make-up of the cavalry component. Polybius' legionary cavalry are provided by the Roman gentry ("equestrians"), and are quite separate from the infantry levy.”
Mr Campbell has not provided any evidence to show that the cavalry of the Polybian legion are not included in the same century as the infantry, and his conclusion is misguided. Out of dozens of examples I have covered in the book, which I have been informed to get rid of some of them, I will chose one from my analyst of the battle of Zama in 202 BC to highlight the fact that during the republic the cavalry were on the same roll as the infantry, which means they belonged to an infantry century.
For the invasion of Africa in 204 BC, Livy stipulates the size of the Roman legion numbered 6200 men and 300 cavalry. The figure of 300 cavalry represents Roman cavalry, not allied. At the battle of Zama, Appian numbers the Roman army at ‘about 23,000 Roman infantry,’ an indication this is slightly short of 23,000 men. Now begins the hard part…by dividing 23,000 infantry by four legions each legion amounts to 5750 men. Roman legion sizes end in round numbers so a legion of 5700 men would be more appropriate. Four legions at 5700 men amounts to 22,800 men. Now are the cavalry included in the 6200 man legion? Appian numbers the Roman cavalry at 2000 men which equates to each legion being assigned 500 men, so:
6200 men
minus 500 cavalry
= 5700 men
minus 500 cavalry
= 5700 men
By adding the 300 Roman cavalry to a Roman legion of 5700 men increases the Roman legion to 6000 men and by further dividing the 6000 men by 60 centuries, a century amounts to 100 men (95 infantry and 5 cavalry per century).
Livy states the Roman cavalry numbered 2200 horse; while another source mentions 35,000 foot and horse embarked for Africa. Livy and Polybius also mention Masinissa providing 6000 infantry and 4000 cavalry. So if we deduct the above figures from 35,000 men, the result is:
35000 men
−10000 men (Masinissa)
−2200 cavalry (Livy)
= 22800 men
−10000 men (Masinissa)
−2200 cavalry (Livy)
= 22800 men
The figure of 22,800 men proportionates to Appian’s figure of ‘about 23,000 men,’ and when the 22,800 men is divided by four legions (2 Roman, 2 allied) the result is a legion of 5700 men. The figure of 35,000 men is not the number of men that embarked for Africa as Livy states but the number of men in Africa.
The book then breaks down the organisation of the 5700 men legion and the cavalry numbers given by Appian and Livy. The organisation of the legion basically follows standard Roman practice for this period. However, although it is structured to fight in its standard triple acies, of great interest and another mystery, it is also structured to fight in single acies. The depth is constant, regardless of the troop type when in single acies. I matched the Roman infantry deployment at Zama with the Carthaginian first line of 12,000 men and found the figure of 12,000 men is exact and not rounded. When this is added to the studies of the Trebia, Cannae, Ilipa, the Great Plains and Zama, the Carthaginian army seems to comfortably comply with Hellenistic organisation.
At the battle of Lake Regillus in 496 BC (Dionysius) or 499 BC (Livy) Dionysius claims the Latin army numbered 40,000 men and the Roman army numbered 23,700 men. My reconstructed tribal system shows the Romans are incapable of fielding an army of 23,700 men, and also the Latin levy system which I reconstructed proves the Latin system is identical to the Roman Servian constitutions, also shows the Latins cannot levy 40,000 men. The Roman tribal system under a dictator shows the Roman should have 15,300 infantry at Lake Regillus with each of the three commanders being allocated 5100 infantry. The figure of 23,700 men is an indication of a correct source as it has not been rounded. What has happened is Dionysius or his source has added the size of the Latin army to the Roman army to arrive at 40,000 Latins. So by subtracting 23,700 men from 40,000 the result is 16,300 Romans versus 23,700 Latins. As Dionysius claims the Romans had 1000 cavalry at Lake Regillus, this reduces the Roman army from 16,300 men to 15,300 infantry and 1000 cavalry. This is the only example of my tribal reconstruction coming under threat, but in the end it has been proven correct.
In 192 BC, Livy mentions legions of 5400 men. Now by subtracting the 300 Roman cavalry, the legion numbers 5100 men, which is the same legion size found at Lake Regillus. Because everything is based on the Servian constitution, the legion sizes remain the same but the internal organisation of a legion only changes if the Servian constitution changes. So basically the legion sizes are standardised. But as no historian has undertaken a serious analyst of the army numbers in Livy’s books one to five and Dionysius, how would they know what’s going on?
It’s not just the Servian constitution as given by Livy and Dionysius I work with, it’s the mathematical system of the Roman cosmos that is catalyst for the Servian constitution that I have at my disposal and it is a very powerful tool. This cosmos mathematical system is the mathematical DNA of the Roman system, and it has been discussed by philosophers and astronomers for centuries, yet no one has realised the Romans implemented this mathematical concept to design the Servian constitution. Ancient astronomers also describe the ages of man in relation to the planets and this is also used by the Romans. The military age of the iuniores represents the distance from the planet Venus to Mars, and the seniores, from Mars to Jupiter. Varro claims the seniores were aged to 60 years, but with the ages of the planets, I can show that Varro has rounded his figure to 60 years.
Steven