When did the Roman Empire fall (your thoughts)?

[starman2012]

whereas federates did what they were hired to do (thee Goths at Frigidus).

All too often federates were backstabbers. The Vandals got "federate" status in the treaty of 435 but a few years later they took Carthage.

@ 408: how do you know that? We simply do not haave enough sources to know that. After 430 or so maybe, but 408 is too early I think.

IIRC in 409 Honorius sought to hire 10,000 Huns, and Roman victories in Spain several years later were the work of hired barbarians.