When did the Roman Empire fall (your thoughts)?

[starman2012]

In what way? Certainly not by chosing a military career. Augustus had to resort to conscription in Italy in the wake of the Varus disaster. So much for Italian patriotism.

It was said that c 138 BCE "Spain aroused such fears in Rome (due to the successful resistance of Viriathus) that levies were hard to raise." Sometimes guys got scared. But Italian or Roman patriotism persisted as it did after Augustus.

So, one can see this religious trend as evidence of strong Roman identification, at least among the elite.

Maybe. But for the masses it was another matter. After all, the elite had a much bigger stake in the system.

Of course they had a choice. The Jews repeatedly proved that. And the Britons. And the Gauls. All to their regret.

At least they had weapons; the Jews also had a history of successful rebellion, under maccabeus. The christians were practically defenseless. No wonder their leaders made proRoman pronouncements, to mitigate pagan anger at those who supposedly put Rome in danger by refusing to venerate State gods.

So, ostensibly their position was pro-Roman.

The christians may not have been against the Empire; most were probably honest, taxpaying, lawabiding people. But I don't think they could identify very strongly with Rome, to the point of fighting like crazy to keep it going. Now of course you posted a link about christian soldiers. But they must have been more the exception than the rule. My guess is that some did it because they tended to be poor and a soldier's career was more renumerative than most others open to them. But I note that Augustine had to tell one it was OK for a christian to be a soldier. Add to that the memory of persecution, the killing of christ by Roman soldiers (awareness of which was exacerbated by the phony Pilate gospel of Maximinus II Daia) and it's little wonder that not many of the new christian population were willing to serve. Even in the east, which made considerable effort to win christian support by portraying the emperor as the champion of nicene christianity, it seems to have taken time for this to work i.e. for more citizens to serve reducing need for barbarians.