When did the Roman Empire fall (your thoughts)?

[Robert Vermaat]

On the contrary, you could also argue that Rome, as it existed previously, ceased to exist because of the crisis period of the 3rd Century. The reformations and changes to Roman society, economy, government, religion, etc. The creation of Tetrarchy rule meant there was no longer a single ruling Emperor. Then in the ensuing civil wars, when Constantine conquered all, it was a victory of Christianity over polytheism and paganism, with a new emperor and a new capitol in the East. Rome wasn't conquered by the Goths, it was conquered by Constantine and his Christians.

Semantics. That just our modern labels being stuck for the benefit of our modern understanding. Just like, during the 19th century, German historians 'invented' the Byzantine empire because that suited them better. Needless to say, I disagree. I think I also have problems with that description 'The Fall' of the Roman Empire (in which we always have to insert the word 'Western'). This seems to have been 'invented' just as well, and mainly for novelists and (later) movie makers. It's SO full of (melo)drama! I've written this more than I can remember: my bet is that if you asked a citizen in southern Gaul, Spain or Italy, what they thought of the Fall of the (western) Empire, chances are you would get a blank stare, because no-one had realised that this had happened, or wehn exactly. Some might have thought you were mad or dangerous.

In other words, we are looking to describe a non-event. Discussions about the 'loss of centralist power in the West' or something like that would be more to the point. Roman society evolved, economies changed, new powers arose, and all that not devoid of violent change.