When did the Roman Empire fall (your thoughts)?

[sonic]

There are several problems with discussions about the Fall of Rome. Before the question can be answered at least two more need to be asked.

1. Do you mean 'Rome' as a whole, or just the West, or just the East?

2. There is a need to define 'Empire'.

Once these are answered, options appear.

If an 'Empire' is a political entitiy that has expanded its sphere of control far beyond its original boundaries,then the East did not last until 1453, as by that time it only controlled the area around Constantinople plus a few other small territories: hardly an 'Empire'. (The same argument applies to 'Trebizond etc.) Possibly 1204 and the sack of Constantinople by the Fourth crusade?

In the West, several dates can be proposed:
- 395 and the definitive division of the Empire;

- 454 and the death of Aetius, the last effective commander to retain control of large areas of the West;

-461 and the death of Majorian, after which the 'Empire' was reduced to the rule of Italy and a few other territories - hardly an Empire;

- 476 and the death of Romulus Augustulus;

- 480 and the death of Julius Nepos;

- the reign of Heraclius and the conversion of the East to using Greek;

- 1204 and the Fall of the East.


I don't believe that any of the 'successor' kingdoms in Europe can be classed as part of the Empire after the Empire lost the ability to control them. If the West is classed as falling only when the Roman economic and political institutions adopted by the 'Barbarian Kingdoms' collapsed/faded away, then in theory the British Empire still rules India - which is an odd thought.