1st Post and Hamata Supplies Question

[marcus4hire]

Hi There!

Wasn't sure if there was a specific 'Welcome Noobs' section or not so I thought I would roll it into my first post.

With that being said, "Hello." Very impressed with the knowledge on this site. Been studying Roman history fervently for 18 months or so. I am constantly amazed at how sophisticated the Roman culture was and how well it would fit (relatively speaking) in modern times.

I have began my studies with the Late Republic and, of course, Caesar. I wish to make some lorica hamata for an office display (it will ultimately contain a full loadout of a Late Republican legionary). I very much want to make it myself and have located everything necessary and in the correct size and material except for the flat 'solid' rings that make up the '4' of the '4 in 1'. I have searched now for 2 weeks and fired off numerous emails (most not returned) asking armourers the price of loose, 8mm, 16ga, mild steel/galvanized, flattened, welded/punched rings. I cannot find them anywhere! The riveted rings are easy enough to find in the size and dimensions I need but not the flat rings.

Can anybody recommend an alternative or source for these? I have found some tutorials on how to do it but would much rather buy the flat rings already made. Any help is greatly appreciated! The winter is coming fast and I plan for this to be my project.

Thanks so much. Hope I can contribute in the future!

[Dan Howard]

Hi Mark and welcome.

Seastrom is the cheapest supplier of metal washers that I have found.
http://www.seastrom-mfg.com/

You need to determine how accurate you want the display to be. Any riveted mail supplies you find commercially are not going to look much like Roman mail. But it hardly matters if you are only trying to impress the average layperson. I wouldn't bother with riveted mail at all if it was just for display. You can make a good-looking hamata just from alternating rows of butted and solid links. I'd also recommend galvanised iron because you don't want the hassle of trying to keep it clean. Mail has a huge surface area and is highly susceptible to rust.

[marcus4hire]

Thank you for the reply and welcome, Dan. I appreciate your time.

Originally, I had wanted to make hamata as accurate as possible. Following some basic research I came up with the following specifications as 'acceptable': a 4 in 1 patterns with the '1' being comprised of an 8mm riveted steel ring (assuming dome riveted) approximately 16ga in size with a round or square cross section (I could not find any confirmation on cross section shape). Likewise, the '4' should be 16ga 8mm flat solid rings that are either punched or welded. The outer diameter of both are negligibly larger than than the ID.

I'm happy to hear your thoughts on my perceptions above. Please correct wherever you see fit. Inner diameter could vary but was using 8mm as a general example of an approximate size.

I believe galvanized rings will suffice. As you pointed out, they will be considerable less maintenance. Was just thinking of making it look as authentic as possible and thought supplies would be easy enough to find. Indeed, riveted washers and the riveting tool were pretty simple. Solid washers, on the other hand, aren't.

I just like the idea of recreating history in such a manner that it looks as close to 'original' as possible, for myself and others, providing an accurate window into the past down to the finer details. Hollywood and pop culture typically go the other way. Seems like it will be considerably more work to do so with this project as I may have to make the rings myself. Found several tutorials and am confident of my abilities. Just have to decide as this point if I want to invest that much time or not, you know? What is that accuracy worth to me? Using easy to find butted rings does sound tempting though.

Thanks again!

ETA: Oh, the link was exactly what I was looking for! I figured an industrial washer type of place would be my best bet. Unfortunately, a quick look at prices (especially for a custom run, which it looks to be) make it prohibitive. Think I could buy a decent finished piece for the price of the washers. They take 'bulk' to a whole 'nother level!

[Dan Howard]

Read this thread and then decide how accurate you want your hamata to be
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189

There really is no standard link size for Roman mail. You need to pick a specific extant example and try to replicate that. AFAIK Erik D Schmid is the only person who does this commercially.

Regarding Seastrom - don't do a custom order. Just pick a link size that is close to something that they have in stock. I recently bought a few kg of these.
http://www.seastrom-mfg.com/washerdetail...702-476-30

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hi Mark and welcome.

Seastrom is the cheapest supplier of metal washers that I have found.
http://www.seastrom-mfg.com/

You need to determine how accurate you want the display to be. Any riveted mail supplies you find commercially are not going to look much like Roman mail. But it hardly matters if you are only trying to impress the average layperson. I wouldn't bother with riveted mail at all if it was just for display. You can make a good-looking hamata just from alternating rows of butted and solid links. I'd also recommend galvanised iron because you don't want the hassle of trying to keep it clean. Mail has a huge surface area and is highly susceptible to rust.

Dan no offense, and I know you are quite an authority, but to say that butted links are better than commercially rivit links is not a good piece of advice,FFS, how can galvanised butted links be a better way of displaying Roman mail than the rivited we can obtain. Apart from Erik ,who does not repsond to requests for info for orders, but who I have a great deal of respect for work wise, the indian stuff is a far cry better than butted and galvanised links. The untreated links will only rust if they are outside and covered in sweat and rain...

[Dan Howard]

If it is just for show then butted links are perfectly fine. If it is intended for SCA or blunt sword combat then most of the riveted mail on the market would be ok and is definitely better than the butted stuff that people used to wear. If it is meant to have a superficial resemblance to Roman mail from a distance then a few suppliers have suitable examples. If it is meant to be a decent replica of Roman mail then nothing available on the market is even close. Nothing would be appropriate for "weapons vs mail" tests either.

[agrimensor]

Maybe they can help (in Germany) http://www.battlemerchant.com/Kettenzeug...:2141.html
but they deliver worldwide.
succes.

[Dan Howard]

Maybe they can help (in Germany) http://www.battlemerchant.com/Kettenzeug...:2141.html
but they deliver worldwide.

Most of the ulfberth mail is no better than the imported mail from India. If that is all you want then you may as well find a cheaper supplier in your own country. From what I've heard some of the more expensive ulfberth products are starting to look ok.

[Dan Howard]

Regarding link size. There were 35 separate mail samples found at Dura Europos. See James' Dura Report pp. 116-120. Outside diameters were as follows but some were too oxidised to get accurate measurements.

#379 8mm
#380 8-9mm
#381 10mm
#382 7-10mm
#383 8-9mm
#384 8mm
#385 7-8mm
#386 9mm
#387-#389 ???
#390 8-9mm
#391 9mm
#392 ???
#393 8mm
#394 ???
#395 ???
#396 8mm
#397 9mm
#398 7.5mm
#399 7.25mm
#400 6mm
#401 ???
#402 ???
#403 8mm
#404 4x8mm 1x7mm
#405 too corroded
#406 2x8.5 2x7.5
#407 8mm, 6-7mm
#408-#413 ???

And this is just from one site! There is no such thing as a standard link size for Roman mail.

[marcus4hire]

Maybe they can help (in Germany) http://www.battlemerchant.com/Kettenzeug...:2141.html
but they deliver worldwide.

Most of the ulfberth mail is no better than the imported mail from India. If that is all you want then you may as well find a cheaper supplier in your own country. From what I've heard some of the more expensive ulfberth products are starting to look ok.

Thank you for the Battlemerchant site Agrimensor! I had come across very late one night and completely forgotten about it. Besides, I had the German version....and I don't speak German. So that looks to be pretty much what I am looking for albeit in 6mm size. Pretty small but still better than anything else I have found.

I guess, in the grand scheme of things, I can't say what authentic hamata looks like. I wholeheartedly agree that a wide range of ring sizes have been found and was using 8mm as a generic size for this thread.

As for use and quality......... I guess I would like it to be functional from a genuine standpoint though I have no intention of actually using it. I do train HEMA and imagine I'd probably mess with it during sparring as an experiment, but that is about it. Mainly looking to construct a genuine historical piece, as much as my skill and available resources allow.

In thinking about it, to me, if I have a 4 in 1 with riveted and solid flat rings in any appropriate size, I'd be happy. Not too concerned with the type of rivet.

What is the quality concern over the site above and/or Indian supplies? Is the metal inferior or not representative of true hamata? Are the ring shapes not consistent with the historical record? Sorry for the questions, still picking up on this somewhat.


ETA: [strike]out of curiosity, anybody have a guesstimate on how many 6mm rings make up 1kg? I'll see what I can pick out from other sites listing weight and ring count.[/strike] Ah, nevermind. Afraid it would be cheaper to purchase one already constructed. Would be, guesstimate of $700 for enough to make a 25-30lb set of hamata. Actually, $700 would be on the low end.

[Dan Howard]

What is the quality concern over the site above and/or Indian supplies? Is the metal inferior or not representative of true hamata? Are the ring shapes not consistent with the historical record? Sorry for the questions, still picking up on this somewhat.

This was already answered.
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189

[agrimensor]

Or, maybe Katleen or Mathias can help.
http://www.cavefelem.eu/wapenrusting_NL.html#
They make a good hamata.
cheers

[Dan Howard]

It is no different to all the other suppliers. You need to make your own links if you want the mail to resemble the museum examples. The Indian links aren't even close.

[66kbm]

With all that negativity do you think he is actually going to make his own Hamata. I say because, in a recent post, we are here to help each other with "stuff" whatever your personal image may be, help each other out, dont put them down.
Kevin

[Doc]

The question of historical accuracy is tricky because it depends on how far a person is willing to go both financially and time dedication not to mention how hardcore someone really is. To be fair, in terms of appearance, the major issue between commercial Roman mail and the actual pieces is the way that the riveted lapped end appears. In the commercially made mail shirts the lapped riveted ends are poor and sloppy not to mention huge relative to actual riveted mail where the lapped end is fine and small. From a distance of even just a few feet, one cannot really tell given how all the rings give that mesh like appearance what the riveted area looks like. Thus in reality you will only see the difference if you hold it in your hand and look really close which to some people is a ridiculous level of searching for a needle in a haystack while for others that small detail is important. However, as Dan has pointed out in past threads, this somewhat insignificant difference makes a difference when testing mail. The reason I say somewhat insignificant difference is because most people wearing mail do not care (some may be unaware) about this detail…..people go to various vendors and buy mail made by Indian or other European companies. To be quite honest, I am resisting buying any mail shirts from these vendors for the reasons Dan has provided in the link he posted. However, under current circumstances there is no one that makes mail shirts even half way decent other than the companies mentioned and I too will have to purchase one from them at some point unless something comes along.
I agree that we are here to help each other out and I for one wanted to make a hamata myself. However, since I do not have the time nor the tools to make a proper hamata the way Dan is suggesting, I will not be venturing into one ever. Therefore, if the master mail artisan Erik Schmid is not longer making hamata, then we have NO CHOICE but to relegate ourselves to substandard (depending on whose opinion) commercial Roman mail since nothing else is available. Like Dan said, you will have to make your own if you really want something that is historically accurate in every way. To my knowledge, I am echoing Byron here, mail master Erik Schmid is not currently taking any orders for custom hamatas. If someone knows otherwise, please let me know.
I have to agree with Byron that commercial Roman mail is better than butted galvanized mail. Even for display purposes the commercial Roman mail is more accurate than the other. The question has been asked as to a certain degree of historical accuracy on this thread and so if the choice comes down to galvanized butted vs commercial Roman mail, I’d go with the latter.
I say that if you are going to use it for display only, then to save yourself the money and time, any of the commercial mail is good enough. However, using any current commercial mail to suggest a complete reality, then I would not bother. If you buy a commercial piece of Roman mail, there are a few things that must be mentioned if you are going to present it to an audience or whomever……..the rivets and riveted area should be mentioned as being incorrect in terms of appearance………the Roman riveted area is lapped a certain way (I do not remember if it is right over left or left over right)……the punched links do not look like modern washers, the diameter of the links according to Erik is usually 5-6mm ID with wire thicknesses of AT least 1mm. There may be expansion joints towards the arms in certain cases. I think Robinson shows this in his book.