Roman integrated padding/liners

[Alexand96]

Salvete omnes –

I am interested in the Roman use of integrated padding liners with armor as opposed to the traditional view that they used a standalone garment – the subarmalis. I have read in passing reference here that remnants of what could be integrated padding and liners have been found in Roman archaeological contexts. The only specific instance I recall offhand where remnants of an integrated lining have been found was Phillip II’s iron thorax discovered in Vergina (obviously, this is not in a Roman context). Could anyone supply me with more information, or perhaps point me in the proper direction for further sources?

Thank you in advance.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

The only thing I can think of is that some of the later Roman helmets were lined with leather on the inside, which serves as a padding. Besides that, I can't think of anything because leather usually doesn't survive.

[Alexand96]

Thank you for your response, Evan. I have heard of various leather and linen/felt, sometimes composite constructions of all three, being used as dedicated, integrated pieces of what many consider to be the stalwarts of Roman armor (helmet, lorica, etc.). However, I am hard pressed to find any direct mention of such a find. I am thinking that I may have heard this in relation to one of the Dura Europos finds? When I am able to check some of my sources at home later this evening, I will update if I find anything.

In the meantime, if anyone else has any information, it would be much appreciated.

[jvrjenivs]

I also think to remember having read something somewhere about a horsehair liner found inside an helmet. Don't remember what or where, unfortunately.

[M. Demetrius]

Leather alone isn't really padding. It would take horsehair, loose felt, loosely bunched cloth, or something of that sort to absorb and distribute incoming impact energy. I've used soft felt inside linen fabric, and quilted it with knotted thread. It works ok, but of course, I don't have to repel actual weapons, but it takes up the shock. Test it with something not too hard, and if your padding makes the impact softer, you're on the right trail.

[66kbm]

I remember seeing a greave with part lining in it in a book somewhere, cant remember where but this may jog someone elses memory. Had one of those 3 leaf clover shaped bits of leather to secure the tie/thonging to.
Kevin

[Dan Howard]

IMO any time you see a representation of armour with leather edging (e.g. lorica hamata) then it is likely to have an integrated liner.

[Alexand96]

IMO any time you see a representation of armour with leather edging (e.g. lorica hamata) then it is likely to have an integrated liner.

I agree with you, in fact, I find that I seriously doubt the entire notion of a subarmalis as we have come to know them (with hanging pteruges from waist and shoulder). I too believe that the many forms of lorica, particularly hamata, would have almost always been more-or-less permanently attached to an integrated liner of linen/felt/leather (detachable for cleaning purposes), which would have sometimes ended in the all-too-common pteruges that we see on so many statues.

I am interested in possibly recreating such a piece of kit, if there is enough circumstantial evidence to make one plausible. I will keep on looking for any sources or information, and post them if I do find them.

[StephenCurtin]

Well scale armour was attached to a backing material, and I remember reading somewhere online (perhaps here) that one has partially survived which was made of multiple layers of linen, would this count as armour with an integral padding? And since people were using scale armour before and during the time of mail armour, then it wouldn't be a huge leap of faith to say that mail may have had an integral padded element.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, there are sources showing what can only be subarmalis, and on their own, so I would not throw the idea out with the bath water.
There is a helmet that was found with theliner in it, but I don't believe it was a seperate item.
The greave liner was on its own as well.

[Alexand96]

Well, there are sources showing what can only be subarmalis, and on their own, so I would not throw the idea out with the bath water.

Despite the fact that I originally would have agreed with you Gaius Julius, now I am not so sure. If you are referencing the images that can be found in this thread here (courtesy of Graham Sumner) http://romanarmytalk.com/rat/17-roman-mi...mitstart=0 then I would argue that although these could be depictions of a subarmalis, none of them exhibit pteruges, and I have never seen any convincing depiction of what could be a subarmalis with pteruges in Roman art, except for perhaps the infamous "floppy cuirass" depicted at the base of a statue of Antonius Pius. The image can still be found on an old archived form of Travis Lee Clark's site (although I do not have access to that link atm). Even that image does nothing for me as we cannot clearly or even reasonably determine what is being depicted.

As well, all of the images for what we perceive to be subarmali in the thread referenced above, could have simply been padded armor garments as well. I specifically point to the statue of the two legionaries from Osuna, Spain, where we quite clearly see a legionary fighting in a padded armor garment.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

No , actually I am thinking of several different sources, including that bloody book
(the name of which is eluding me at the moment), and the ivory plaques,
And also if you look at the pturgues on Octavians statues, the way they
Poke out at the shoulders makes me believe they are a separate garment!
I'm not ruling out the possibility on some being made to be part of the armour, but
I doubt it would be the common theme!

[john m roberts]

Someone must make a detailed study of the baleful effect of the subject of armor padding on memory. At least 2/3 of the posters on this thread can't remember where they saw something.

[Theodosius the Great]

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/media/kunen...0_0032.JPG

[Theodosius the Great]

Palestrina plaques:


Temple of Hadrian:


North Africa (Tunisian?) Monument:


Rhodes trophy:






[attachment=5470]pteruges_connelly.JPG[/attachment]

~Theo