What is the Hod Hill spatha - IA or Roman?

[Vindex]

This discussion has started elsewhere as I am looking at having a scabbard made for a sword reconstruction.

In your opinion, what is the Hod Hill spatha?

Is it:

a) An Iron Age, late La Tene-type sword which was a chance find by a Roman soldier operating in the Durotriges area and kept as a "trophy" find.

or

b) A Romanised, late La Tene-type sword (by that I mean the property of a La Tene-influenced auxilary cavalryman)

c) None of the above? (And if not, what else?)

And

would the scabbard be metal or organic?

Your opinion would be most valuable, particularly backed up by archaeological evidence to support your argument.

Thank you.

[Caballo]

Good questions!

As I recall, it was found by the auxillary fort, possibly in a ditch. Could be a) or b)- but I'm inclined towards b) A Romanised, late La Tene-type sword (by that I mean the property of a La Tene-influenced auxilary cavalryman) - as I can't think of another example of a trophy weapon being found in that type of context.

As regards scabbard, here is a contemporary chape also found at Hod Hill, with some similarities of Celtic style.


Its on page 273 of Stead, British Iron Age Swords and Scabbards, and plate A5 in Brailsford, Hod Hill Vol 1 - Antiquities from Hod Hill in the Durden Collection. This would imply an organic hilt with metal fittings.

I love the Isleham scabbard as a possible all metal combination
which would look like this.



but it has been pointed out that this is a little early. http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/25-alli...patha.html

An alternative would be the Stanwick scabbard


I'd thoroughly recommend getting hold of a copy of Stead ,British Iron Age Swords and Scabbards- lots of info.

Cheers

Paul

[Vindex]

Thanks Paul - I remember the previous thread which is why I was looking for something else.

Sadly it's because of Stead that I have these questions!

I would much prefer it to be a Romanised La Tene as that suits what I want to do but it does have an impact on the scabbard.

There are lots of scabbard fittings in the Durden Collection as you suggest. The examples you have shown certainly suggest an organic scabbard, but there is a comment in Stead (P44, Orton Meadows scabbard) which suggest the metal fittings came off the scabbard quite easily; and the shape of the Orton Meadows scabbard reflects those you've highlighted from the Durden Collection.

The other question is, are the other items scabbard mouth guards too and not hilt guards? I really want this to be the case as I think the symmetry of sword hilt and scabbard mouth would be really smart

[D B Campbell]

a) An Iron Age, late La Tene-type sword which was a chance find by a Roman soldier operating in the Durotriges area and kept as a "trophy" find. or b) A Romanised, late La Tene-type sword (by that I mean the property of a La Tene-influenced auxilary cavalryman) c) None of the above? (And if not, what else?)

I cannot remember the precise circumstances of its discovery, but everyone seems happy to interpret it as a "Roman" loss, rather than a "British" loss. However, I think that its interpretation as a "spatha" is an invention of the re-enactment community -- I may be wrong (I frequently am) :whistle: -- anxious to categorize it as a particular type of Roman sword. My own belief is that the sword is a mixture of your (a) and (b), a genuine La Tène sword used by a "Celtic" auxiliary. (I am prepared to be persuaded otherwise, if the evidence supports an alternative interpretation.)

[Vindex]

I'd like it to be a "Roman" loss...but having read Stead I'm now not so sure. In the description it sounds to me as if someone was trying to straighten the sword out and it snapped! Could a bent sword suggest something dedicated as with other deliberate deposits? (Bearing in mind the number of swords in the south found in rivers).

Can you read this attachement? Starts at line 6.

[Caballo]

I'm not sure that the break needs to be interpreted as definitely a deposition mark. There are references IIRC in the litereature to Celtic swords bending and being straightened out on the field of battle (Polybius-
'...they (the swords) are effective only at the first blow; thereafter they are blunt and bent so the warrior has not time to wedge it against the ground and straighten it with his foot, the second blow is quite ineffective.' There is also a reference in Plutarch, I think.)

Recent metallurgical analysis of Celtic swords has made writers doubt Polybius and Plutarch, but there is other evidence of long-bladed swords bending during battle from later periods. The Icelandic Eyrbyggja saga, describes a warrior straightening his twisted sword underfoot in a manner similar to Polybius's account: "whenever he struck a shield, his ornamented sword would bend, and he had to put his foot on it to straighten it out". Peirce and Oakeshott in Swords of the Viking Age note that the potential for bending may have been built in to avoid shattering, writing that "a bending failure offers a better chance of survival for the sword's wielder than the breaking of the blade...there was a need to build a fail-safe into the construction of a sword to favor bending over breaking".

"The other question is, are the other items scabbard mouth guards too and not hilt guards? " I think (from the attachment ) that A2, A3, and A$ are hilt guards since they show a clear mark either side of the mouth where the blade would fit (and be indented from peening?).


If I'm correct that A2, A3 and A4 are all scabbard mouth guards, then their find spots may solve the question of whether they were the property of a La Tene-influenced auxilary infantryman or cavalryman. If they were found in the auxillary fort, the evidence seems to mount that these were used by Roman auxillaries.

I suppose they could have been ALL trophies, but think that the Roman auxillary explanation is more probable. I don't have the original report- could you get access to it?

A5 below though can't be a hilt guard because of its construction and so I would interpret it as a scabbard mouth.


Could it have come off an all metal construction? I suppose so, but I think its unlikely because it looks very "clean" on the drawing ( though I haven't seen the original).

Cheers

Paul

[Vindex]

Thank you again. I hand't thought to connect the horizontal slots with the blade! :whistle: Nor was I aware of the Icelandic saga.

So, back to Brailsford:

"It is, however, a matter of history that the finds [in the Durden Collection} were made in ploughing, and although over three quarters of the hill has been ploughed today, only the western half was under the plough in Durden's day and it is therefore the area of the Roman fort' page viii

Hod Hill, Volume One - Antiquities from Hod Hill in the Durden Collection J W Brailsford 1962

I suppose the evidence from three hilt guards and the Hod Hill sword itself could support the theory of Auxiliaries using these weapons; supported by Richmond's evidence of a fire in the southern area of the fort, this could assume they were abandonned in haste, and in perfect condition at the time.

I think I am happier about the Roman context.

(Next port of call, Roman cavalry units during the invasion attached to the Second Legion. Lets hope its not the Asturians ;-) )

[Caballo]

I'll look forward to that ! Although, it may not disprove a Celtic auxillary prescence.

Another thought- if we could get the measurements of the groove in the hilt guards , we then have the width of the actual sword blade for reconstruction...and combined with the length of the Hod Hill sword we could have the dimensions of the original swords.....