Why do 1st Century Roman groups avoid combat

[jvrjenivs]

Our equipment is just right for the first century A.D

Well, I see too many trooper helmets in that movie along with other fantasy and india gear, which I wouldn't call 'safe' nor 'authentic'.

[scotti73]

Rado, the Dacians seem to be enjoying themselves!! and then a healthy dose of Roman justice.
I guess that each person has their own ideas of how the hobby works, each are equally acceptable. I'm not advocating battles just asking a question. However if anyones UK based and fancies giving it ago send me a PM.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Looks like a good event,!Rado!
I don't recall seeing so many trooper helms in your group in
Rome!
How many takes did it require to finish the video?
There is one we took part in coming out next year!
Even managed to stab myself in the leg at one point, trying too
Hard to avoid someone else! :lol:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Looks like a good event,!Rado!
I don't recall seeing so many trooper helms in your group in
Rome!
How many takes did it require to finish the video?
There is one we took part in coming out next year!
Even managed to stab myself in the leg at one point, trying too
Hard to avoid someone else! :lol:

[arklore70]

Rado,
Looked darn good to me and no doubt that some of your best gear was not used for the combat demonstration.

[Rado]

Our equipment is just right for the first century A.D

Well, I see too many trooper helmets in that movie along with other fantasy and india gear, which I wouldn't call 'safe' nor 'authentic'.

Jvrjenivs you know me and our club very well!
You know that in our club there is no one trooper helmets!
They are in use by another independent Bulgarian club(by which participated together). Several times I give them advice on how to improve their equipment but without success It is a solution to every club what equipment to use.
Until I am the president of this club LEG IIII SCYTHICA I will not allowed a legionary with such trooper helmets to participate in club formation.
http://s019.radikal.ru/i615/1205/6c/c62f2d6fbf01.jpg

[Rado]

Looks like a good event,!Rado!
I don't recall seeing so many trooper helms in your group in
Rome!
How many takes did it require to finish the video?
There is one we took part in coming out next year!
Even managed to stab myself in the leg at one point, trying too
Hard to avoid someone else! :lol:

The festival was a wonderful.The video was done by a professional operator in Romania .Hosts legion were XIII Gemina from Romenia.

[Rado]

Rado,
Looked darn good to me and no doubt that some of your best gear was not used for the combat demonstration.

Festival was very successful! The weather was beautiful. Everything that was on our disposal as equipment was used in battle or in parade.

[Rado]

Rado, the Dacians seem to be enjoying themselves!! and then a healthy dose of Roman justice.
I guess that each person has their own ideas of how the hobby works, each are equally acceptable. I'm not advocating battles just asking a question. However if anyones UK based and fancies giving it ago send me a PM.

Battle was dedicated to the first Trajan war with Dacians. These are some pictures from our formation in the battle.







Quality equipment that we use in our Legion is mainly from Deepeeka and our products, made in Bulgaria.

[Evert]

For general safety I recommend: No sharps or pointies on the battlefield, padded gloves (fingers are easily broken). Safety barrier of one spear length wide between the fighters and publicum. Helmets for show, no shots to the head/helmet.

[Olaf]

Though the fight in that video might have looked specatcular to the spectators, I would hardly call it a "battle demonstration".
Coming from the Gladiatorial crowd I know how much training, disciplin and trust in the fighting partner is needed to show even remotely plausible combat moves with Roman and other antique weapons.
Of course having sturdy helmets that protect the head, face, neck as well as manicae for the unshielded arm does help a lot in doing freefight displays with a good amount of safty.
In the video you can see very well that the Romans do not stap with the point of their Gladii and the Dacii do not chop very hard with their weapons.
But these kind of battle displays only afirm the typical blade on blade fencing and shield pushing we now and "love" from Movies and TV.

With longer blades and more sturdy armor it is much easier to find a basis were even people that have never practised together can have safe and even competitive free fights.
But even in these systems like the GErman Codex Belli or the so called International rules attacks to the hands as well as the head are banned and stabs may only be performed by spears and only in a downward thrust targeting below the chest.
All free fighter I know use differnet kinds of padded or thick leather gloves to protect the fingers which might not be historical but look fitting with the early medieval gear. In a Roman environment manicae with added protection for the fingers would have to be manditory.
Lastly most freefighters use extra sturdy helmets and shield buckles and I have seen a blunt Gladius stab right through the thin brass Umbone used on a Deepeeka Scutum once.
So you are basicaly looking at getting a second set of gear just for doing reasonably safe free fighting displays in addition to a lot more free time spent training to be a safe fighter yourselve.

[Robert]

I have read this thread and wondered whether to comment or not. Then I saw the video and thought, oh well, why not. Frankly, the question that needs to be answered is why engage in combat in the first place? In my view, there can be three reasons: A Some people think it is fun to have a bash at one another at times. B It is entertaining and shows the public some action. C It teaches us things about the effects of combatstyles and weapons. All three have come up at some point in this thread. My thoughts on these views are the following:

A. I am not one of these, but if you are, taking up kendo is a great way of hitting another person within a strict set of rules and with equipment specificly designed for mock combat. Mind you, taking a good hit means just that! In re-enactment, "having a bash" is a good way of getting people hurt and ruining equipment. I have been the witness to this on several occasions and have had gear on loan ruined. The presence of a camera really brings out the worst in people. Shieldbashing may be fun, but it is NOT what the shields of that period were intended for. Beefing up the shields to withstand it is non-historical and leads to gear not fit for serious re-enactment (which I view as trying to get as close as possible to the proven originals) Needlefelt combat ..... oh well, really!

B. People still lust for viewing battle, but nowadays we restrict this to the football pitch and boxing ring. A mock battle in a field with rudimentary props may stir some folks in the audience and frighten the children. But all in all the end effect of breaking through a straw bale wall and waving falxes in the air does not really reflect what a life or death fight is about, which is efficently killing or maining as many of the opponents as possible. I wonder which Roman historian has described the strawbale as an effective means of defence. So any mock battle with contact weapons like swords, spears and the like will always look rather silly when no real attempt at effective contact is made.

C. The only way to prove the effectiveness of a weapon or fighting style is to use it as intended against a live target. However, we know the Roman combat style was superior, as they trod on just about anything they encountered in the first century and roled across Europe. Shield wall, closed formation, stabbing swords, archers and artillary to soften up the target, a volley of pila to break a charge. The closest we get to viewing the Roman army of the first century at work is a squad of riot police taking on a group of houligans. I do believe, have spoken to a few, they would love to be able to use pila and stabbing swords, but then again, society has moved beyond that.

So unless the WHY is answered, I believe the HOW can be skipped, no offence to those who like to have a good bash, just do not call it re-enactment.

[M. Demetrius]

Many of us who use needledfelt swords/spears for mock combat call it just that. It allows for a reasonable blow to be sent to the arm or other body part of a clerk or auto mechanic while delivering no harm to the individual who has to return to work the next day or two. Some don't want to do it, and that's ok, even if that is planned to be part of an event. Needledfelt "weapons" look a good deal more like the real thing than "boffer" swords, but cost significantly less than the better looking foam replicas, plus they are pretty well indestructible.

We all realize that it's not the same as genuine combat, and accept the obviously poor compromise in favor of not having to bleed. Shield bashing shield to shield is probably not what was generally done, though you can be sure that in the press of a real battle, that may have happened from time to time. It's pretty likely that the edges of shields were used as a secondary weapon, and would have been pretty effective if it were possible to land a blow to the chin, neck, face or other body part. In our system of mock combat, however, both are forbidden. Many of us have had our shield smacked into our own faces, and fully understand that wood is harder than noses.

It's hard to come up with a respectable name for what we do. Reenactment is incomplete, since mostly we're not "reenacting" a specific historical event. Living History is a different sort of activity, in which a person adopts a first-person character, and portrays what that person might have likely done in history. Because of some "reenactment groups'" bad behavior in some areas, many of us are hesitant to use that label. There's not an agreed upon term, really. I say I'm in a First Century History Group, and most people get the idea.

[richard robinson]

Sometimes I have blamed the advent of dressing up in armour and whupping people with swords on Monty Pythons Quest For The Holy Grail. However I have since realised that it really is just an off shoot of Pageants that are actually part of our collective cultural heritages.
So
some say reenactment
some say living history
I say : Pageant!

I do like to play with swords in armour. Sadly, in Australia, there are not enough folk keen to do it in Roman kit- or Greek kit or even too many gladiators. I blame it on " I need to be armoured to the hilt" mentality- and my ancient armour cost too much- and my weapons are accurate and thus unsafe to use accurately- at least thats some of the reasons i have heard. Having said that a good drill is a good work out some days
We do what we can when we can :?
regards
richard

[Evert]

Robert,
As to the WHY, we should go back to WHY or rather HOW we present what we do:
- Is it a reconstructed display of what the ancients looked like, accompanied by interaction with- and explanation by the 'live fitting dolls'?
- Is it a display of replica's to immerse the audience into the life of the ancients?
- Is it a demonstration of crafts as we reconstruct it was done by the ancients?
- Is it a first-person historic role-playing theater display to amuse the audience?
All of the above?

In case we chose to reenact an army, which is presumed in this thread:
- Do we put on a static display and show army live, weapons and armour?
- If we show army live, does this include drills/training?
- If the audience seen the drills/training, wouldn't they want to see 'the real thing'?

I feel looking at the drills as one looks at a football training, in the end you would want to see the match... WHY not give the audience that show?