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Why do 1st Century Roman groups avoid combat
#31
Richard,

A blunt metal sword is more than capable of breaking bones, and also damaging kit, as is a wooden sword. If you've ever been hit in the face, even by a pulled blow, you will understand quickly why it is not really feasible to do
Quote:accurate
combat.
However, if you want to trade blows which do not really resemble how it was done, then there is a ready made forum for you.

Authentically made late helmets are a bit too expensive to have bashed about as well, I think you will discover.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#32
There are some who decline even needlefelt combat fearing kit damage but then there are others who feel that any damage (and repairs) make their kit more authentic to a serving Legionary impression and not garrison soldiers parade in Rome perfect.
John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
Member Legio V (Tenn, USA)
Staff Member Ludus Militus https://www.facebook.com/groups/671041919589478/
Owner Vicus and Village: https://www.facebook.com/groups/361968853851510/
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#33
If you had seen up close the actual flimsiness of Roman military gear which has been found, you would not say that.

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#34
Well, I think the damage from needle felt would be a lot less that wooden or metal weapons.
I have some 1st and 3 -4th cent kit that is hardy and not so bling, but there is always the possiblity of injuring someone. Also your'self.
:wink:

I have seen people lose teeth, I have seen people stabbed in the ear, I have heard of people getting spears through the eye.
And then the death of a well known re-enactor filming. We can do without that sort of reoccurance, this is only a hobby after all.
Some are fortunate to get paid for it, but not all of us.
I certainly enjoy sparing on equal terms, but when the rules are changed to allow individuals to escape the consequnces of their actions, it becomes bullshit. :mrgreen:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#35
Any historical kit won't be to the level of the modern protective gear that I demand in my historical fencing classes. Even if both fighters are well trained and they know each other (not easy to know in a "battle"), fighting with blunt steel is dangerous and I have seen serious injuries made this way.

Weapons were made to kill, if we want to "play war" (as any combat won't be 100% authentic), better to use "toys": there are nice looking foam or latex weapons safe enough to fight with them without any protections.

Otherwise, the only way to "fight" with metal weapons is training intensively to fight but not to injury, but that would be too different from real combat, so the "authenticity" is discarded anyway...

Perhaps I may have a too blunt way of saying this, but I have seen things of the medieval "metal bashing" that I don't want to be witness again.
-This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how
sheep´s bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
[Image: escudocopia.jpg]Iagoba Ferreira Benito, member of Cohors Prima Gallica
and current Medieval Martial Arts teacher of Comilitium Sacrae Ensis, fencing club.
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#36
Byron
you seem to be assuming that i speak with no experience of the subject. I have much experience of the subject from over twenty years experience of both battle reenactments and living history. I fully appreciate the effect of being hit with blunt weapons and regularly deal with sharp ones through work. The aim of this topic was to ask a question which never seems of be answered in light f other periods of reenactment. I am pleased so many people have replied as it shows a real passion for the period. Incident I've not advocated battle reenactments though if its about inaccuracy should we knock gladiators displays on the head. What forum do you refer to Byron?
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
Cohors I Tungrorum
Cohors I Batavorum
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#37
Sorry, I'm not assuming anything, I read your previous mention of experience. However, it's your dismissal of all the reasons put forward that I am finding difficult to comprehend. I think we have given very legitamate reasons for what we do. Richard, what would your reasoning be for it?


The addition of combat may entertain the crowds, but it's not really educational unless it is based
on something. And we have always had great feedback from spectators, and the clients, without the addition of a bash each other about session. Cool

SCA would be an ideal format for bashing each other about, btw, as the equipment is beefed up and accuracy of kit is not an issue.

Saying that, there are occassions when contact combat is done, usually for filming etc, and other occassions.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#38
In viking reenactment the fighting took a competitive turn and has developed into a martial art of its own.
It's reasonable safe to develop a fighting system and tactics using purpose made blunt steel weapons for the majority of the Roman hand held arsenal. Of course one also needs built-in safety measures, kit (padded gloves!) barriers, weekly training and an enemy.

Kit wise this means that one has a your $5000 kit for museum display and a $500 kit for fighting...

Evert
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#39
Needlefelt combat has the advantage that costs are low as only the weapons are replaced.
Costs to make needlefelt weapons can be under $50.00 per person. Add a 2.00 pair of safety glasses and you are ready. Since the weapons are less hard than either wood or blunt steel
damage to shields and other kit is much less also.
John Kaler MSG, USA Retired
Member Legio V (Tenn, USA)
Staff Member Ludus Militus https://www.facebook.com/groups/671041919589478/
Owner Vicus and Village: https://www.facebook.com/groups/361968853851510/
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#40
I would make a distinction between bashing and fencing. I actually bought two fencing masks for our group though we rarely use them. With head, neck and face protected I actually like the idea of working out how to attack a spear, or sword. Problem is we have no idea how a group would fight, ie, how the guys to my left and right would cover for me or stab my opponent when they aren't looking. Or what the guys behind me would be doing.
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
RAT member #6?
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#41
These are things we discuss and practise (not often enough) in first cent groups!
I personally think the needle felt is a viable option!
It will hurt, but I doubt teeth will be removed and eyes gouged as easily as with metal weapons,
Even blunt ones!
I know the larger Viking community do put on pretty fantastic combat displays!
I have a combat ready helmet, but I have not held an authentic one so cannot
Speak on kit differences!
But the aim in roman combat is to stab at the face, throat, armpits,
Any undefended body parts, and slashing at the backs of legs if you can't reach those bits!

While th dream of massed legions fighting a set piece battle is everyone's dream? I fear it will have
To wait discussion, as I hear a Cidre calling me away!
Valete, comilitones!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#42
I have no reasoning other than it is a question that i've never had a conclusive answer too. I only reenact 1st century Roman so no axe to grind. I just don't understand why other periods so readily take part in battle reenactment but 1st century Romans don't, as i said tactics are tactics and are equally dangerous after all they are designed to kill people in the most effective way, but in a reenactment world a boars snout is the same as a wedge, a 17th century Pike block works similar to a phalanx an arrow shower is an arrow shower, just what is it that we as Roman reenactors make it anymore dangerous than say a Viking reenactment.
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
Cohors I Tungrorum
Cohors I Batavorum
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#43
In the group I belong too the two driving factors that we normally avoid combat is liability and lack of experience.

A lot of the sites we now do events at strictly prohibit us from doing combat, to include the use of needlefelt.

We do use needle felt on a very limited basis, usually oncea year at Lafe/ clash of iron.

One thing not mentioned here, and I am simplifying this greatly is Roman Military Combat is a team event against another opposing force/enemy. It's hard to replicate the forces required in order to show it/ display it at least in North America.

When you have only one or two events in a year where you can get the numbers to even show Roman Military Combat, let alone rehearse and rehearse some more, it sort of falls back into third or fourth place on the priority list of things one wants to display and accomplish at a event.
Mike Daniels
a.k.a

Titus Minicius Parthicus

Legio VI FFC.


If not me...who?

If not now...when?
:wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:
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#44
Well, apart from all the reasons given above, I can' t think of any others!
Sorry!
I still thInk it's not easy to do authentically, for all the reasons above!
It would be something just to field a large unit!
However, I have seen people from Roman groups with equipment modified
To do combat! I think it changes the appearance significantly in some cases!
I recall the stories of expert swordsmen in other eras being maimed
When I first started, and decided probably not the route to go down!
I haven't seen anything yet in Roman reenactment that has convinced me
There is a safe route to go down, authentically
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#45
Our equipment is just right for the first century A.D and we have at least 3 major battles. During at the good festivals.One of the video with our participation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P13tPFCNBHk
Radostin Kolchev
(Adlocutio Cohortium)
http://legio-iiii-scythica.com/index.php/en/
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