My 4th Century Knife

[markusaurelius]

I thought I would post some images of the Late Roman knife that I just finished today. Having just recently started making some of my own display kit, I thought I'd show this latest one off (still working on my scale armor suit).

The blade is copied from the Lankhill grave 37 blade (14cm x 5cm)


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The handle is a copy of Late Roman knife handle (in shape), while the decoration is a copy of some period Bog finds.

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The pommel nut is from a Roman knife in Lankhill grave 1805 with a similar nut.

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The pommel plate design is modeled after the Spatha pommel for Durostorum with a similar bulbed border, and opposing heart shapes. (I'm going to try and make a copy of that Spatha in future, so the knife design would complement that).

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I'm working on the leather sheath next. In terms of the suspension method I'm thinking of using a similar method as with the swords. A small organic slide to allow two leather straps wrap around the sheath.

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[Caballo]

Really great work, and love the archeological sourcing. I'm just reading the latest Lankhills book at the moment ( was on a dig this summer with one of the writers) so seeing this reconstruction has made my day. What will you be doing to reconstruct the buckle and belt parts?

[Medicus matt]

Good work. Nice to see a knife of this kind reconstructed so well.

A small organic slide to allow two leather straps wrap around the sheath.

I think that would be a mistake, but I'll be interested in seeing the results.

[markusaurelius]

I think that would be a mistake, but I'll be interested in seeing the results.

What would you suggest? My feeling on it was that if the swords were suspended that way, why not the knife. Its a clearly straightforward way to suspend something. As far as I know there is not a single knife sheath from the period to compare to....

[markusaurelius]

What will you be doing to reconstruct the buckle and belt parts?

In regards to the actual belt, I'm using the RQP wide chip carved plates along with some propeller stiffeners which I'll make myself. I'll probably mount the knife on the right side using two RQP circular attachment loops.

[Medicus matt]

What would you suggest? My feeling on it was that if the swords were suspended that way, why not the knife. Its a clearly straightforward way to suspend something. As far as I know there is not a single knife sheath from the period to compare to....

I asked exactly the same question 3 years ago, on this thread after making a couple of Lankhills type knives:-
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...=entrypage

In the end I went with a simple sheath with two slits in the back and a suspension thong running through it to allow it to be fixed to a suspension ring on a wide belt.

I don't like resorting to elements for which there is no evidence when reconstructing something that is otherwise based on archaeological evidence. We have evidence that leather sheaths were used but no evidence for the use of slides or bridges on knife sheaths of this or any other period that I can think of, so I wouldn't use one; it seems unnecessary.
Personal choice, which is why I said "I think that would be a mistake" rather than "That would be a mistake".

As I said, I'll be interested in seeing the results.

[Caballo]

"In regards to the actual belt, I'm using the RQP wide chip carved plates along with some propeller stiffeners which I'll make myself. I'll probably mount the knife on the right side using two RQP circular attachment loops."

As a suggestion, you might want to look at grave 1175 at Lankhills (The Late Roman cemetery at Lankills, excavations 2000-2005http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/90358//Location/Oxbow) page 159-60, where the owner of a knife like yours had a horse headed buckle of similar shape to this one from Armamentaria https://www.armamentaria.com/store/index...cts_id=129


Heres a picture of the original.



From World Archaeology, who commented "The difficulty of distinguishing ethnicity on the basis of cultural objects is illustratedby Lankhills Cemetery Grave 1175, which contains the burial of an individual who is verylikely, on the basis of his isotopes, to have come from Pannonia; neither his belt buckle, whichis of classic late Romano-British type, nor his knife are diagnostic of origin"

The decoration on the plate is different, but you clearly have all the metal working ability to customise this if you wanted to. The grave was also found with a nummus of Theodosius 1, ad 388-395, so we have a nice date on this (ie after 388). The coin was placed in his mouth - presumably to pay the ferryman...

No strap end with this grave, but some nice amphora style ones also found in Lankhills.

[markusaurelius]

Great idea Paul. The only issue being that I had purchased the chip carved set quite some time ago, and need to make use of it. It fits the period anyhow, just not as exact as the buckle you showed for the exact grave.

I don't like resorting to elements for which there is no evidence when reconstructing something that is otherwise based on archaeological evidence. We have evidence that leather sheaths were used but no evidence for the use of slides or bridges on knife sheaths of this or any other period that I can think of, so I wouldn't use one; it seems unnecessary.

I can see your point, but I guess really we have no examples of leather sheaths, and I doubt the odd one that exists (for which I have not seen a photo of) is preserved enough to draw any conclusions from. In my opinion using some kind of small organic slide on the sheath doesn't draw away from archaeological evidence because there is none. The swords of the period used slides, and the wrap around leather throngs to mount them. To me an organic version of that would fit the lack of brass bits in grave sites, and at the same time stay in the tradition of the mounting style of the period.

Using a Sax sheath from the 8th Century hardly seems more reasonable which seems to be the norm from other re-creations I've seen.

We'll see. I'm still open for discussion and it would have been nice to see you previous thread get some more responses. But I guess the lack of responses reflects the lack of archaeological evidence.

[markusaurelius]

I thought I'd add the reference for the dots on the blade. From a museum example.

[Medicus matt]

The swords of the period used slides, and the wrap around leather throngs to mount them. To me an organic version of that would fit the lack of brass bits in grave sites, and at the same time stay in the tradition of the mounting style of the period.

But swords scabbards of the 5th and 6th centuries also used slides and there's no evidence that the knife sheaths (of which there are surviving examples) of those periods featured a slide, so I don't see how you're staying 'in the tradition of the mounting style of the period'.

There's a continious tradition of using slides on swords scabbards from at least the 2nd to the 10th century, there's no tradition that I'm aware of for using them on small knife sheaths in any part of that period.

Using a Sax sheath from the 8th Century hardly seems more reasonable which seems to be the norm from other re-creations I've seen.

I agree, although I don't ever recall seeing one of these gallo-roman knifes in something I'd call a seax sheath....but then these 4th century knives are presumably general purpose knives, not side-arms; another reason I'd expect them to be kept in relatively simple leather sheaths, for which there is evidence for both prior to and after the period in question.

[markusaurelius]

Good points Matt. I guess I'm not happy with the alternative, of a simple leather sheath. I find that solution to be contrary to everything that was Late Roman, with its gold gilded helmets, colorful patterned tunics, richly decorated scabbards and swords and knives with patterns, silver nuts, decorated hilts etc. To have a plain leather sheath just doesn't make sense to me. Especially when you consider that the knife itself could be quite large and arguably quite suitable as a secondary weapon.

There are some beautiful 6th-7th Century preserved sheaths which have deeply engraved leather patterns on them, as well as small circular bits of brass etc.

[Medicus matt]

I know. The whole thing is very frustrating, especially when you look at the beautiful thekenbeschlag sheaths of the 2nd -4th century and the richly decorated sheaths of the 4th century Iberian knives. They're more what you'd expect.

But then look at the context of what you're reconstructing. Lankhills is the best we've got by way of a late Roman cemetery in this country and, when you look at the grave goods, the vast majority of them are pretty unostentatious. A lot of copper alloy bangles, a handful of brooches, one 'military' belt set (grave 376) etc. Obviously all that really tells us what was buried in the ground, not what people wore in everyday life but this part of the mid/late 4th century doesn't appear to have favoured the sort of flashy display you find elsewhere.

Something else occurs to me as I look at the two grave catalogues. These knives aren't found in a position which indicates that they were worn on the body at all...and why would you? These were town people with houses..why would they need to hang knives on their belt?
Doesn't resolve your problem of course (which boils down to you not being happy with what little evidence there is...you could always just do lots of tooling and dyeing on the leather),more just musing.

Oh, and one other thing. Slides have to be lashed down firmly which you can do with a sword scabbard as it has a wooden core...how would you lash it down as firmly on an all leather sheath?

[markusaurelius]

Oh, and one other thing. Slides have to be lashed down firmly which you can do with a sword scabbard as it has a wooden core...how would you lash it down as firmly on an all leather sheath?

Because I was going to use a broad slide, and one that didn't lash onto the scabbard, but riveted on. I was going to simply stitch it on with some linen thread. We'll see.

Here are some pics of some scabbard for slightly later knives, but you can see the decoration on these ones very well.

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This 4th Century knife that was found with a sword (both on the left side of the body), as well as a crossbow broach with a Chi-Rho, and some glass with a boar hunt scene. The blade is very richly decorated, again supporting in my mind why the sheath should have some decoration....


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[Caballo]

I'd agree that knife scabbards are highly likely to have been decorated in some way. Contemporary sword scabbards were (eg the Stichilch diptych, Honorius diptych, the porphry figures in Venice that were looted from Constantinople, and some even appear to be jewelled (eg Honorius). Plus a long tradition of decorated knife scabbards going back to 1st century pugios and beyond. Knife scabbards were decorated before and afterwards- so we lack evidence, but the balance of probability points to tooling and decoration, maybe even painted.

As to a slide without a wooden core, it can be done. Heres an experiment I did, and it works fine. Doesn't prove that the slides on knives were used though, of course, but it does show that it is possible.


Heres a couple of scabbards that I made. Name and a discreet chirho. But I should probably have done more.



And on my Dorchester belt.


The rectangular shape is an experiment as well, seeing what would work with the suspension rings.

[Medicus matt]

Knife scabbards were decorated before and afterwards- so we lack evidence, but the balance of probability points to tooling and decoration, maybe even painted.

I agree that they may well have been decorated with tooling/carving/incising and even selective dyeing/painting. When I said 'simple sheaths' I meant simple in terms of construction.