08-14-2003, 07:51 PM
Avete omnes!<br>
<br>
Matt, I think we need to understand that the brightly decorated, extremely ornate examples of Roman artifacts that we are so fond of reproducing as reenactors are those that most museums are displaying precisely because they represent the pinnacle of the Roman culture's artistic achievements on their technology. For each "sword of Tiberius" we find in the archaelogical record, there are literally hundreds of undecorated simple swords. Same thing happens with helmets, and I suspect with other items as well.<br>
<br>
Also, we cannot make the assumption that legionnaries had all day to sit around doing nothing - for example, foraging for food and firewood, maintaning and repairing weapons and other equipment, fighting drills, etc. -i.e. a lot of things WE reenactors do not do during our couple or three days of wearing loricae and trying to figure out how it all works without poking a pila in someone<br>
<br>
BTW, I do use and believe the sources and so forth - however, I try not to predicate absolute knowledge of the Roman way on my interpretation of things. Your Legio's Handbook was one of the source materials I used to create my initial kit for our church's Passion play (Via Crucis, to be exact) before I met ol' Hibernicus and co. I also know that archaeology can and does change the data available - just look at all the things we have all learned after the discoveries of Kalkriese, Dura Europos, the excavations being conducted even today in sites such as the Forum, the Collis Capitolinum, etc. Twenty years ago, our body of knowledge was much poorer than it is now. Just imagine what it will be ten or twenty years from now. We have verified quite a bit of what the ancient authors wrote - and also dispelled some of the myths they sought to perpetuate. I guess my way of looking at it is to work with the materials and see how they behave.<br>
<br>
Point well taken regarding the forge blackening rubbing off with use. I think that tinning or silvering would probably have been a solution or answer to this (heck, we know they silvered masks and other bits of armor - wouldn't put it past the Legati or the Centurio to want to look his best ). That would produce the shiny effect without the need to polish continually (which a soldier on campaign won't do if it interferes with his primary tasking - to survive the engagement!). Look at those very same British Army NCO's during WWI and WWII in Burma, India, etc. and you'll see that once contact with the enemy was a certainty, the ol' spit and polish was slightly deemphasized<br>
<br>
As for practical Romans, practicality and beauty are not mutually exclusive - look at a Do-maru, or even an O-yoroi and you can see that even an eminently practical cuirass can be made quite beautiful with simple things such as color and designs. Of course, the most decorative examples belong to those who could afford them - a major incentive for looting in every army I can think of prior to our period. "Hey, I's goin' to buy me that dersh-good lookin' war-hat, and a preety shirt to match!!! Again, we get to see quite a bit of the prettier items because those will get museums visited (and therefore, $$$$ into the museum funds). Go to the research collections and you'll find things are a bit plainer, and a whole lot more common than we think. Art will show us how a culture wishes to portray itself - while it can be a very accurate portrait at times, it can also sway into serious self-delusion at others.<br>
<br>
I agree with you on hard evidence over speculation any day of the week - but it's a lot of fun to ask folks like you and all the others on this forum for your understanding of these subjects. It allows me (and I hope others) to think a bit more in depth about our hobby, and it beats working any day!<br>
<br>
Optime vale,<br>
Marius Cornelius Scipio<br>
LEG IX HSPA COH III CEN I HIB<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
<br>
Matt, I think we need to understand that the brightly decorated, extremely ornate examples of Roman artifacts that we are so fond of reproducing as reenactors are those that most museums are displaying precisely because they represent the pinnacle of the Roman culture's artistic achievements on their technology. For each "sword of Tiberius" we find in the archaelogical record, there are literally hundreds of undecorated simple swords. Same thing happens with helmets, and I suspect with other items as well.<br>
<br>
Also, we cannot make the assumption that legionnaries had all day to sit around doing nothing - for example, foraging for food and firewood, maintaning and repairing weapons and other equipment, fighting drills, etc. -i.e. a lot of things WE reenactors do not do during our couple or three days of wearing loricae and trying to figure out how it all works without poking a pila in someone<br>
<br>
BTW, I do use and believe the sources and so forth - however, I try not to predicate absolute knowledge of the Roman way on my interpretation of things. Your Legio's Handbook was one of the source materials I used to create my initial kit for our church's Passion play (Via Crucis, to be exact) before I met ol' Hibernicus and co. I also know that archaeology can and does change the data available - just look at all the things we have all learned after the discoveries of Kalkriese, Dura Europos, the excavations being conducted even today in sites such as the Forum, the Collis Capitolinum, etc. Twenty years ago, our body of knowledge was much poorer than it is now. Just imagine what it will be ten or twenty years from now. We have verified quite a bit of what the ancient authors wrote - and also dispelled some of the myths they sought to perpetuate. I guess my way of looking at it is to work with the materials and see how they behave.<br>
<br>
Point well taken regarding the forge blackening rubbing off with use. I think that tinning or silvering would probably have been a solution or answer to this (heck, we know they silvered masks and other bits of armor - wouldn't put it past the Legati or the Centurio to want to look his best ). That would produce the shiny effect without the need to polish continually (which a soldier on campaign won't do if it interferes with his primary tasking - to survive the engagement!). Look at those very same British Army NCO's during WWI and WWII in Burma, India, etc. and you'll see that once contact with the enemy was a certainty, the ol' spit and polish was slightly deemphasized<br>
<br>
As for practical Romans, practicality and beauty are not mutually exclusive - look at a Do-maru, or even an O-yoroi and you can see that even an eminently practical cuirass can be made quite beautiful with simple things such as color and designs. Of course, the most decorative examples belong to those who could afford them - a major incentive for looting in every army I can think of prior to our period. "Hey, I's goin' to buy me that dersh-good lookin' war-hat, and a preety shirt to match!!! Again, we get to see quite a bit of the prettier items because those will get museums visited (and therefore, $$$$ into the museum funds). Go to the research collections and you'll find things are a bit plainer, and a whole lot more common than we think. Art will show us how a culture wishes to portray itself - while it can be a very accurate portrait at times, it can also sway into serious self-delusion at others.<br>
<br>
I agree with you on hard evidence over speculation any day of the week - but it's a lot of fun to ask folks like you and all the others on this forum for your understanding of these subjects. It allows me (and I hope others) to think a bit more in depth about our hobby, and it beats working any day!<br>
<br>
Optime vale,<br>
Marius Cornelius Scipio<br>
LEG IX HSPA COH III CEN I HIB<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
