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Roman Ballistae in Modern Popular Culture
#1
Feel free to move it elsewhere if this seems too off-topic, but I find the recent impact of the Roman catapult on modern material culture interesting:

Toy for children: Playmobil ballista
Toy for men: Gadget ballista for the office
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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#2
There is quite a lot of modern interest in Ancient artillery. Unfortunately, most depictions or toys/models available bear little resemblance to historical evidence. For example, The desk-top "ballista" in one of the linked articles is more correctly termed a Euthytone Catapulta, not a Ballista at all. In both instances, there are many who would argue that the arms of a ballista (palintone engine) should point forward when at rest and be drawn inwards and back rather than pointing outwards in the traditionally accepted fashion. Possibly the worst and most pervasive anachronism out there is that nearly all the depictions of Roman single-armed catapults/onagers show them with spoon-like arms rather than the sling they actually used. There is so much misinformation out there in the popular culture that it becomes nearly impossible to defeat. Many of us have resigned ourselves to its existence and use it to start a dialogue with the general public.
P. Clodius Secundus (Randi Richert), Legio III Cyrenaica
"Caesar\'s Conquerors"
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#3
I still find the concept of the forward arms a little hard to see.
They appear to be as shown on TC.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#4
Quote:They appear to be as shown on TC.
The bow-arms aren't depicted on Trajan's Column, Byron.
[attachment=4734]TrajansColumn_ballista.jpg[/attachment]
One theory is that they have already "in-swung" through the frame and the machine is ready to shoot.


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posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#5
Quote:Possibly the worst and most pervasive anachronism out there is that nearly all the depictions of Roman single-armed catapults/onagers show them with spoon-like arms rather than the sling they actually used.

The most popular depictions which come to my mind are the ones from Asterix. In Asterix in Belgium, IIRC, a whole battery of onagers is shown with a spoon arrangement. But at least Uderzo was well-informed enough to avoid drawing a medieval trebuchet instead.
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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#6
Quote:
Gaius Julius Caesar post=317165 Wrote:They appear to be as shown on TC.
The bow-arms aren't depicted on Trajan's Column, Byron.
[attachment=4734]TrajansColumn_ballista.jpg[/attachment]
One theory is that they have already "in-swung" through the frame and the machine is ready to shoot.

Hmmm so they arn't, I wonder where I got that image from (in my head) :?
How ever, it still seems a very odd method. The arm stops back this up?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#7
Well Byron, the in-swinger vs. out-swinger debate is nearly as partisan as red tunic/ white tunic. For a whole lot of reasons I am firmly in the in-swinger camp. Not the least of these is the fact that the two most powerful reconstructions, Carnifex and Nick Watts' Firefly, vastly outshoot their traditional outswinger rivals. Nick's machine is throwing bolts up to 800m. That is enough to land them across the Danube as described by contemporary writers.
P. Clodius Secundus (Randi Richert), Legio III Cyrenaica
"Caesar\'s Conquerors"
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#8
I recall it now, just was not seeing it.
The mental image sorted though, when I realised the arms would not have to travle bacj through the
spring body! (I think)
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#9
This link shows the Firefly in action - I have to admit I had a hard time visualising the inward-moving arms in action until I saw this. However, the protuding stock doesn't seem to be supported by the TC representation - or is this another detail simply missing from the current column, like the spears?

(Edit: The full version of that scene shows a protusion to the right of the frame that is potentially the extended stock shown with dodgy use of perspective. NM.)
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#10
All of the representations on Trajan's show a substantial portion of what is presumed to be the stock protruding from front of the weapons below the arch. Many refer to this part as the "slider". This of course creates a rather large problem for the out-swinger crowd to explain away as this so-called slider is never seen pulled to the rear, even when the weapon is loaded and ready to shoot.

Following the ideas of John Anstee, Firefly's "slider" is a fixed to the stock and only the block (chelonium)containing the claw and trigger slides back when the arms are to be drawn. This conforms more closely to the images on Trajan's Column.

One of the few aspects of Nick's design that I disagree with is that rather than having any of the stock/case forward of the arch, I think only a grooved rail, similar to the traditional slider, should extend beyond the front of the frame. In Aitor Iriarte's reconstruction of the cheiroballistra or hand ballista, the stock has to extend forwards as well to support the slider when it is run out to capture the bowstring. Since the larger Carroballista has a winch and sliding block and is not a belly-cocker only the fixed rail (quadratus stylus) must extend beyond.
P. Clodius Secundus (Randi Richert), Legio III Cyrenaica
"Caesar\'s Conquerors"
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#11
Here's a couple pictures (Rather poor ones mind you) of an Andrea miniatures kit I had painted and assembled. Hope you enjoy Big Grin

[Image: DSC06437.jpg]

[Image: DSC06445.jpg]
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#12
Very nice work Chris. As an artillery design geek, I have some differences of opinion with a few stylistic aspects of the Andrea Miniatures kit, but your treatment of it is very well done. Kudos!
P. Clodius Secundus (Randi Richert), Legio III Cyrenaica
"Caesar\'s Conquerors"
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#13
Pardon the stupid question, but could I ask what the "win" is with a ballista?

I mean, I can understand the field pieces of the gunpowder age - how they can reduce fortifications and kill a number of men with each shot.

I'm sure it must have been effective or it wouldn't have been used - but how? What does a ballista bolt do on an ancient battlefield that a man-carried bow or crossbow does not?
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#14
Quote:Pardon the stupid question, but could I ask what the "win" is with a ballista?

I mean, I can understand the field pieces of the gunpowder age - how they can reduce fortifications and kill a number of men with each shot.

I'm sure it must have been effective or it wouldn't have been used - but how? What does a ballista bolt do on an ancient battlefield that a man-carried bow or crossbow does not?

Well, first of all, apart from bolt-shooters you also have pieces shooting stones (and big stones). These can be put to good use during a siege. Furthermore, a scorpio can far overshoot a bow both in range and power.
________________________________________
Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
A.K.A. Jurjen Draaisma
CORBVLO and Fectio
ALA I BATAVORUM
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#15
Jennifer, it's not really a stupid question. There are a number of ongoing debates about the true effectiveness and tactical uses of Roman torsion weapons. First though, the term ballista means different machines depending on which century you're talking about. Before 100AD it meant a massive wooden framed machine that threw large stones. After that it is used to describe a somewhat smaller machine with a primarily iron-framed machine that shot mostly arrows. In both variations there are some of us who believe that they could also throw multiple lead sling bullets at once like a big shotgun. In all cases, using a powerful winch they could throw any projectiles further and much more powerfully than any hand weapon.
P. Clodius Secundus (Randi Richert), Legio III Cyrenaica
"Caesar\'s Conquerors"
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