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Quote:D B Campbell post=316810 Wrote:Speidel says there's another optio with hastile in Budapest, but I can't think of the sculpture. Can you?
Could this be the one (CIL III, 3530)?
http://www.ubi-erat-lupa.org/imagelink/i...hp?Nr=2938
What does the inscription on this one say and what time period? I ask because the shield
is Oval shaped.
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Quote:I ask because the shield
is Oval shaped.
What shield?
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Actually, I think that is his cloak.
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There are other examples that depict the shield slung in this position behind the individual. That is why I interpreted the seemly Oval shape as a shield rather than a cloak. If the depiction is a soldier with a Spear and shield and tablet this might make him a clerk rather than an Optio. An Oval shield wouldn't of necessity make him an auxiliary either as other memorials with Oval shield shield have Legionary
inscriptions. (My view on that is that some Legionary units such as the the "Light Armed Cohorts" may have been equipped with Oval Shields and Spear type Javelins rather than Scuta and Pila.)
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Quote:What does the inscription on this one say and what time period? I ask because the shield
is Oval shaped.
Quote:If the depiction is a soldier with a Spear and shield and tablet this might make him a clerk rather than an Optio.
Combining lupa and EDCS, I read the inscription as:
D(is) M(anibus) // P(ublius) Ael(ius) P(ublii) f(ilius) Maecia / Mestrius Pela(gonia) / opt(io) leg(ionis) II ad(iutricis) / (centuria) Attei Dextri / an(norum) XXXVIIII stip(endiorum) / XVIIII h(ic) s(itus) e(st) opti/ones leg(ionis) eiusde(m) / f(aciendum) [c(uraverunt)]
So he is definitely an optio of legio II Adiutrix. I can't help over the date, though.
Quote:Actually, I think that is his cloak.
I agree.
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Patrick,
The Optio's name in Greek (Polybius, from a time when Greek armies still existed and fought in close formation) is "ouragos", or file-closer/"tail leader" in the Greek phalanx. The ouragos was the soldier ("NCO"?) who stood last in the file and stopped the phalanx from losing cohesion at the rear.
This seems indicative that the optio had a particular function (in battle) of keeping the ranks "dressed", i.e. orderly. The "headless lance" with which may then have served in a manner similar to that of the polearms (spontoons, etc - sometimes blunt, I believe, so not really a true weapon) of non-commissioned officers in European armies of the 18th century, used for keeping soldiers in straight lines (they stood in three ranks in most mid-18th C armies, so not as deep as the Romans) at a time when private soldiers were all armed with flintlock muskets and officers/NCO's were to direct fire, rather than "give fire" themselves.
A prevailing theme with all disciplined infantry through history until accurate long-range small arms necessitated dispersal is that formations need to be orderly to remain effective, and so I wonder if the optio actually remained behind the rear rank (and not part of it) of the century/maniple with the main task of trying to keep his block of men in order (and to stop anyone running away at the back).
Polybius was describing the Roman army in the late Republic, but Josephus I think uses the same term for optio (I haven't any reference material to hand) in your period of interest. While the Greek phalanx had disappeared by this time, the term seems to have carried over and stuck with the optio.
There is some good material in one of the Caerleon lectures by Speidel ("Framework of the Imperial Legion") if I remember correctly.
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Quote:jkaler48 post=317007 Wrote:I ask because the shield
is Oval shaped.
What shield?
I think John is refering to the stele posted by dave?
you ca nmake out an oval sheild apparently attached to his back!
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I took a look at the stele, again, that John Kaler is referring to. It looks like his cloak to me; he's wearing a paenula. The DM, if I'm not mistaken, will give some idea of timeframe for the stele - Late 1st century AD if not likely 2nd century AD after Legio II Adiutrix had moved to the Danube region? I am certainly not up on all the intricacies of Roman military tombstones.
As an added remark: As you can see from my avatar, I use side plumes with my impression - and I also happen to be an optio in my reenactment unit. However, I am careful to explain that it is my staff that shows my rank, not the feathers - as according to Paddock in his thesis on the Italian Bronze Helmet - fully 25% of the Hagenau type helmets (Robinson Coolus D, E, etc.) have side plume tubes of some sort.
Quinton Johansen
Marcus Quintius Clavus, Optio Secundae Pili Prioris Legionis III Cyrenaicae
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The last link is obviously a cloak, but I am positive he is refering to the first stele posted. John is pretty savey. 
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Quote:Patrick,
The Optio's name in Greek (Polybius, from a time when Greek armies still existed and fought in close formation) is "ouragos", or file-closer/"tail leader" in the Greek phalanx. The ouragos was the soldier ("NCO"?) who stood last in the file and stopped the phalanx from losing cohesion at the rear.
This seems indicative that the optio had a particular function (in battle) of keeping the ranks "dressed", i.e. orderly. .....
John, I couldn't agree more. None of the study I've done over the years, and particularly recently, has lead me to any other conclusion(s).
The 'standard bearer' of every century acts as the focus upon which to deploy and formate (effectively the 'right marker'), whilst the Optio keeps them all together - the likely best later/modern equivalent would be a 'sergeant'. Meanwhile the Centurion (officer-level) commands and moves the century in line with his orders - and often, of course, has to leave the century to carry out his duties and so leaving the Optio in charge as his deputy - just as Polybius describes. I would even go as far as to suggest that the Optio was a 'double-pay man' or duplicarius as that is one of the more obvious assumptions.
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Quote:I would even go as far as to suggest that the Optio was a 'double-pay man' or duplicarius as that is one of the more obvious assumptions.
This seems reasonably well-established. See David J. Breeze, 'Pay Grades and Ranks below the Centurionate', JRS 61 (1971), 130-135.
Michael King Macdona
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Duncan,
What do you make of the tombstone posted by David Wills? EDCS has the inscription reading:
F DEI[3] // Montanus [mil(itavit) a]nn(os) IIX / Capito opt(io) de liburna / Aurata cognatus heres f(ecit)
Raffaele D'Amato, in his Osprey book Imperial Roman Naval Forces 31BC-AD500, interprets it as commemorating an optio named Montanus Capito. I am no epigraphist but it seems to me to be unusual for two parts of a man's name to be separated by his period of service. My interpretation would be that it is the tombstone of a man named Montanus erected by the optio Capito, his kinsman and heir. Am I up the creek?
Michael King Macdona
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Quote:I am no epigraphist ...
Likewise, I would hesitate to call myself an epigraphist. Particularly when I cannot make any sense whatsoever of the top half of this inscription. (Christian tombstones sometimes employ the phrase F(amulus) DEI, "servant of the Lord", but this seems entirely inappropriate here!)
Quote:My interpretation would be that it is the tombstone of a man named Montanus erected by the optio Capito, his kinsman and heir. Am I up the creek?
If you are, then I'm right beside you!
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Actually its quite obvious what you write.
I have no idea how someone could find that this is Optio Montanvs Capito on this thombstone.
Its for sure Optio Capito who offers this thombstone to higher rank officer named Montanus.
Also because :
- Capito and Montanus are two cognomens for two different persons.
- its says at the end that : "... cognatus heres fecit" which means: "... related by blood succesor made it"
Which makes it really clear.
Who can be related by blood and can make this thombstone if not Optio de liburna aurata ?
There is no other name at the last sentence.
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