German translation

[Jona Lendering]

Writing about the presumed decisiveness of the Battle in the Teutoburg Forest, P. Kehne states:

Es ist falsch die Varusschlacht als historischen Wendepunkt aufzufassen, wie dies geschichtswissenschaftlich Unkundige gerade in diesen Tagen wiederholt propagieren.

I think this is beautifully phrased. But how can we translate it into English? The first part is easy:

It is wrong to see the battle of the Teutoburg Forest as a historical watershed, as is, these days, again propagated by...

But how can we translate "geschichtswissenschaftlich Unkundige"? I am currently thinking about "those who do not understand historical method", but then, the beautiful sarcasm is lost.

[Nathan Ross]

I'm not sure about the translation, but if you want to give it a sarcastic edge then reversing the clauses might help:

"Despite the continuing claims of those ignorant of historical methodology, it would be wrong to see Teutoburg Forest as a watershed."

[Joze Noriker]

..those, who aren't professional (good) in history-science(s) (historiography).

Joze

[Jona Lendering]

Thanks; I think we're approaching something. Still, I think we're not yet there... anyone else?

[Renatus]

Is "the historically illiterate" too harsh?

[Jona Lendering]

Is "the historically illiterate" too harsh?

That's what I was looking for! Thanks!

[Joze Noriker]

It goes for the professional knowledge in history-science; those, who aren't unprofessional (like amateur); un-experted in it; un-competent.

Joze

[Jona Lendering]

It goes for the professional knowledge in history-science; those, who aren't unprofessional (like amateur); un-experted in it; un-competent.

The main problem is that we have to translate not just words, but also a concept. History is a "Wissenschaft", but in English, it is unusual to call history a "science". "Scholarship" is more logical. For an Englishman, history is telling a story based on sources, like Gibbon did, and countless amateurs have done; for Germans, history has more to do with analysis, like Weber did - and it really is a profession. The words I want to translate, are in fact meant to ridicule the amateurs, which is possible because the difference between professional and amateur is something far more relevant to Germans than to British.

I am exaggerating a bit, but I am trying to show that the difficulty of translating this phrase has a lot to do with the view on what history is.

[Vindex]

The main problem is that we have to translate not just words, but also a concept. History is a "Wissenschaft", but in English, it is unusual to call history a "science". "Scholarship" is more logical. For an Englishman, history is telling a story based on sources, like Gibbon did, and countless amateurs have done; for Germans, history has more to do with analysis, like Weber did - and it really is a profession. The words I want to translate, are in fact meant to ridicule the amateurs, which is possible because the difference between professional and amateur is something far more relevant to Germans than to British.

I am exaggerating a bit, but I am trying to show that the difficulty of translating this phrase has a lot to do with the view on what history is.

I am sure the context of your translation of this phrase is "of the period" and your current use of the present tense in no way infers that British Historians are all still amateurs...

[Joze Noriker]

Hm, Jona, i think you know the translation very good, because you have your own semantic concepts about this German's text. I can't help you in this situation.
In German's Geisteswissenschaften&Gesellschaftwissenschaften is not only a Weber a dominant person.

Joze