Distance marching rates, infantry v cavalry

[Nathan Ross]

Hate to be a bit nit picky but if you put hay in a bag under the horse's nose you'll probably suffocate it. Grain, yes; hay no. And I'm not sure if horses would eat on the march in this manner...

Hate to try and out-nitpick Moi on equine matters, but wouldn't giving a horse unlimited access to a nosebag be a good way to give it colic? :-?

in which case, however, and pre-supposing interior lines of communication with infantry forces already on-site at the other end, as well as logistical support - then using an all cavalry reinforcing force becomes quite viable.

As for a central cavalry reserve; it makes strategic sense to have a reserve or units on call which can provide the sort of rapid reaction force you are talking about.

the cavalry would arrive on day 3 and the infantry day 4.

So it sounds like all are agreed that a cavalry reserve force could move faster than an infantry one, but only over lines of communication with supply depots, possibly even remounts along the way. And even then, they don't outdistance the infantry by a great amount of time! mile:

[Vindex]

Hate to be a bit nit picky but if you put hay in a bag under the horse's nose you'll probably suffocate it. Grain, yes; hay no. And I'm not sure if horses would eat on the march in this manner...

Hate to try and out-nitpick Moi on equine matters, but wouldn't giving a horse unlimited access to a nosebag be a good way to give it colic? :-?

Yes is the quick answer which is why I think it is doubtful that it would be done, but not impossible (I have just emailed a vet friend of mine to get his opinion).

Horses can be "stressy" eaters at the best of times, even the fit ones. I've had trouble getting one of my hyper fit hunters to eat after a full day in the field :roll:

And yes; I think we agree. All depends on the circumstance and urgency of events I think.

[D B Campbell]

The 80km a day (50 miles) is associated with Gallienus' rapid strike force. (Note to self - check if it is Roman miles or standard miles which have been used in the calculation). Furthermore Gallienus' force at Milan was between 50 and 60 alae (Cheesman 1941) so 25,ooo troopers (that's a LOT of fodder and a massive muck heap for the horses!) to be dispatched as required.

I hate to spoil a good discussion, but ... what rapid strike force?!

[Nathan Ross]

Factoid alert! See "Coinage and Cavalry" in Ancient Warfare magazine II.6.

Ah, factoids! :twisted:

And for the study of the ‘third century crisis’, the coin evidence is often pressed into service as a major source. But has it misled us over the question of Gallienus’ battle cavalry?

I would assume it has, then? :wink:

Actually, I notice that Lukas de Blois wrote the intro for that edition... He seemed to have some reservations about Alfoldi's coin evidence back in 1974, but generally accepted the notion of a cavalry reserve, at least a temporary one in Gallienus's reign. Have you gone further along this route?

[Vindex]

I hate to spoil a good discussion, but ... what rapid strike force?![/quote]

The one mentioned in Nathan's post above; not his phrase and Hyland's phrase is, to be correct:

"It was based at Milan in a pivotal position, able to launch a very rapid attack by covering 50 miles (80km) per day"

I mentioned the Hyland reference to the distance cavalry could travel right at the very beginning of the thread and said I would give the source.

If there wasn't 25,000 cavalry sat in Milan, not the point I was making guv'nor!!

[Nathan Ross]

Gallienus' force at Milan was between 50 and 60 alae (Cheesman 1941) so 25,ooo troopers (that's a LOT of fodder and a massive muck heap for the horses!)

That's a LOT of horses too! Since this force (if it existed, and pending Duncan's demolition of the whole concept!) was supposedly drawn from detachments, surely that would leave most of the frontier denuded of cavalry... I wonder where Cheesman got the idea?

Is there any connection with the fact that it was cavalry officers who disposed of Gallienus???

Supposedly (again) yes - Claudius Gothicus and Aurelian were also commanders of the 'cavalry force' (better put that one in scare quotes for now!). The breakup of this force soon afterwards was supposedly to counter the excessive concentrated power of its commander...

[D B Campbell]

Furthermore Gallienus' force at Milan was between 50 and 60 alae (Cheesman 1941) so 25,ooo troopers (that's a LOT of fodder and a massive muck heap for the horses!) to be dispatched as required.

I think someone's been pulling someone else's leg. Cheesman (1914) covers "the auxilia during the first two centuries AD" (p. 21), so naturally he doesn't discuss Gallienus. Like the "Fate of the Ninth Legion", Gallienus' "Battle cavalry" grows with each retelling. I'd be intrigued to discover the source of this particular elaboration! :-)

[Vindex]

Oops...sorry for my typo.

I am quite happy to believe no one could put 25,000 horses near Milan!

[Nathan Ross]

Just had a quick scan through Cheesman, and although he does cover development of the auxiliary force in brief up to the late third century, there's no mention of Gallienus and his cavalry.

Like the "Fate of the Ninth Legion", Gallienus' "Battle cavalry" grows with each retelling.

Is it really that bad? hock:

[D B Campbell]

Does some proper cavalry (and their band!) make up for it?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TncOBvBrr...re=related

Absolutely. I love the big drummer horse (naturally :wink: ).

[Vindex]

Thank you! I couldn't get it to load... :mrgreen:

I'll add the boring detail again then...

General is on a grey horse so he can be seen during the battle (double edged!!), plus his ADC; and the trumpeters (signallers). (Apart from the Scots Greys of course).

The Staff have an assortment of horse colours but not grey. The troopers of the HCR have black. (Kings Troop Rotal Horse Artillery have only bay; alas the Chestnut Troop doesn't have any horses at all these days, but if they did they would be, erm, chestnut :wink: )

The trooper with the black plume on his helmet at the very back is the farrier and he carries an axe. This was to remove the stamped hoof of dead horses to prove the animal was dead and so stop siley Quartermasters demanding fodder for the dead horse. Horses, like soldiers, have Regimental numbers.

I need to get out more...

[Steve Kaye]

Hate to try and out-nitpick Moi on equine matters, but wouldn't giving a horse unlimited access to a nosebag be a good way to give it colic? :-?

I don't envisage 'unlimited' access to a nosebag. A bag of grain given to a hard working animal that was used to the bag, following training and experience, might tuck in and walk with the legionaries.

But, it's just a thought ....... looking forward to hearing what the vet says.

Regards, Steve

[Graham Sumner]

Dan wrote:
There are US Civil War manuals that cover this subject in some detail.


Sadly I do not have one handy although I do have something on the U.S. Camel Corps but that is another story! However I do have this from the British Army 'Field Service Pocket Book 1914' in the section on 'Marches and March Discipline', (italics mine) which I thought might be of interest.

"An average march under normal conditions for a large column of all arms is 15 miles a day, with a rest at least once a week; small commands of seasoned troops can cover 25 miles a day under favourable conditions.

Care of horses:
"Watering. - Take every opportunity of watering on the march. Always water before feeding, never immediately after. Dismount, remove bits and loosen girths before watering......Do not move at a fast pace after watering.

Feeding. Give a small feed before a long march, however early the start may be.

Feed en route during marches over 5 hours-Remember that horses require a considerable time to consume their rations- not less than 5 hours in 24 should be allowed. Remove nosebag when horse has done and let him graze if possible".


Graham.

[Vindex]

Ok. Concensus of opinion is that although a horse CAN physically eat and walk with a nosebag (evidence cited is working draught horses but suprisingly NOT Hackney cab horses) it isn't recommended and does indeed cause colic.

An interesting but TOTALLY irrelevant snipit however, is the determination of the term "pole position". It is alleged that this term comes from the horse quickest to get it's nosebag on the pole to which it is harnessed, and use the pole to support the bottom of the nose bag so it can reach the food in the very bottom. Problem with this is that the horse has to be part of a team as only then is it harnessed to a pole.

OR

(anyone still awake?)

Pole position is the leader of the team which is on the whip's (the driver'r) right hand side and a very reliable horse...so always put in pole position (which I believe in motor racing is still off set to the right??)

...and then we have the term whip hand but I think I've gone enough off topic as it is!

[66kbm]

Gobeldegook to me ...but im reading with interest...Grazzing dont grow on trees...for a Legion ???
Kevin