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Trireme construction
#1
I had always assumed the Triremes were rather complex and hard to build but recently in my research a reference is made to Athens building 110 of them in three mounths. This does not indicate a high level of "technology" any thoughts ? <p></p><i></i>
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#2
Trieres were highly standarized and they had pre-fabricated components ready to be assembled. On the punic Marsala warship they found painted letters on the surviving strakes that pointed to pre-fabrication. I'm meaning that separate teams were kept shaping just some concrete components and, afterwards, they were transported to the shipyard, were the actual ships were assembled.<br>
Anyway, a high technological level, indeed!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#3
Aitor,<br>
<br>
But these components had to be made on the spot, probably more convenient somewhere near the port. So, if these pre-fabricated components had not been stored in Athenes long before for the case of emergency, that indicates Triremes were built for three months. I don’t believe that pre-fabricated components were transported from far away.<br>
<br>
By the way, I met in the sources mentions about building a lot of ships for a very short period of time. (Sorry at the moment can’t say where from). I suppose that building them required few GOOD engineers and A LOT of experienced carpenters and other workers. And if these workers were inspired by necessity of their country and real danger for their own families they could do it VERY quickly. (Like during WWII.)<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#4
Warrior11,<br>
I was not meaning 'far away'. No matter how many supplies you had stored in Antiquity, they were useless if you had to transport them by land and, even sometimes, by sea. They would reach you far too late!<br>
Athenians and other people need to have big quantities of seasoned timber stored before starting a war and its reasonable to suppose that, being all trieres practically identical, the timber was already dressed to finished or half-finished components. Even in that case, they naturally needed an army of naval carpenters and workers to achieve their feat but, IMHO, without enough previously stored prefab components, that feat would not have been possible!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#5
Maybe they did store these components, or maybe they luckily for them happened to have suitable kind of timber in the period when they needed. Nothing odd for that great city.<br>
<br>
What I meant was that Athenians really had enough experienced stuff for this kind of job.<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#6
That's it!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#7
I wonder, some kind of treatment was required to make the timber durable in the sea, otherwise the ship lifespan would be very short, were they that kind of "expendable" ships? OTH I remember having read somewhere that triremes could not stand ramming twice in a battle, because the shock would be too much for the feeble structure of the ship <p></p><i></i>
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#8
Aryaman,<br>
Remember that they towed the trieres ashore and housed them in sheds for the winter.<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#9
What I mean is that if they used green timber to buold them, ships will embark water in short time <p></p><i></i>
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#10
Does anybody know if their have been any triremes recovered from the Mediteranian ? <p></p><i></i>
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#11
Aryaman,<br>
I think that Greek warship builders would have only resorted to unseasoned timber if totally desperate but I haven't been there to see it, of course.<br>
jhhoffman,<br>
As far as i know, no. The trieres were very light ships and they rarely sank completely. Moreover, when they did, their fragility prevented their preservation.<br>
Remains of warships:<br>
The ATHLIT bronze ram in Israel, belonging maybe to a 'four' bigger than a triere. It was surely been jus cut from its ship as a trophy when it was lost in the sea.<br>
The two LILIBAEUM Cartaginian warships, in Italy. Scarce remains of bow with ram structure and a stern. Maybe from liburnae.<br>
The LAKE NEMI first ship, in Italy. A replica of a big Hellenistic warship (a 'sixteen'?) built for emperor Caligula.<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#12
It is very doubtful that the lake Nemi ships were warships. They may have been galleys, but their shape does not correspond at all to one of a warship. The comparison to big partyships - they were in a lake, mind you, is perhaps better.<br>
<br>
As to green timber: Herodotos reports indicate that the Persian triremes were better/faster than Athenian ones. That might mean that the Athenians used timber that was not well fitted for use in shipconstruction.<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#13
Jasper,<br>
<br>
You should review your information on Nemi I !<br>
How would you call an elongated ship with a ram?<br>
I agree that the most exagerated Hellenistic super-galleys were more than doubtful as effective warships but, nevertheless, their contemporaries deemed them as astonishing warships!<br>
Nemi I's breadth is too wide but increasing ships breadth is the only way Greek naval archtects could house so many rowers per rib.<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#14
I would call an elongated ship with a ram a warship. However, the reconstruction drawings nor the plan of what's left show a ram. It's at most a cutwater which appears quite often on all kinds of galleys. <p></p><i></i>
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#15
<img src="http://www.learningsites.com/Presentations/Eureka2002/02_athlit-ram-01_rear_corner-view.GIF" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
A photo of the Athlit ram (I'd rather prefer a side view, but I've been only able to find out this one on Internet! )<br>
Jasper, The Nemi I ship was sunk near the surface and had suffered badly, specially her bow. Of course, we'll never be sure that a ram like that was attached to the forward end of the keel but it would have been one the first things stolen, even before the ship sank (clear proofs were found that indicated that the ships were been dismantled prior to their wreckage)<br>
The reconstructed lines of Nemi I show a giantic but elongated ship. The images of the recovered wreck show something like a broad, shallow barge but we must keep in mind that only the bottom of the ship survived. Anyway, there was enough information so as to prove that the lines reconstructed by the Italian Navy at the beginning of the forties were esentially correct. I've e-mailed A photo of a model to Jasper and I hope that he'll post it here.<br>
More opinions, please!<br>
<p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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