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greek armours
#1
Kaire!! I'm Germanicus and i have a question for you:<br>
<br>
COULD A SPEAR (OR A SWORD) PIERCE the greek body armour? In the high school i remember of hoplites died from belly shots.<br>
<br>
Germanicus <p></p><i></i>
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#2
There is numerouse quotes in greek literature of swords, spears and arrows going through greek armour. So the easy answer is yes. <p></p><i></i>
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#3
A more accurate answer would be "yes and no".<br>
The linothorax had to provide a decent level of protection or else the hoplites would not have used them.<br>
Having recently made a test patch of linothorax from 16 layers of 7 oz. canvas and Elmer's glue I can say that it's tough stuff. I tried to pierce it with a pair of tin snips and large kitchen knife and it BARLEY went through the first 2-3 layers.<br>
Now a spear has more mass and may have more force behind it but there is a significant amount of protection.<br>
On the other hand, spearmen, swordsmen and archers are trained to exploit weaknesses in armor so they'll be aiming for the open areas like the forearm, thigh,armpit and the "vitals" which is a polite term for one's manhood.<br>
My belief is that since so many acient texts were translated many centuries later by uptight western-Europeans that they may have done some editing and used "belly" as a replacement.<br>
Just my opinion. Hope it helps <p></p><i></i>
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#4
Yes he is quite correct greek armours were of many types full bronze bell cuirass, bronze sheeted, linothorax, scaled linothorax and even horses hoofs sewn together so as you can see the protection provided by such various materials would provide differing amounts of protection. <p></p><i></i>
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#5
This question is for jhhoffmann:<br>
Can you tell us one or two of your quotes about weapons going thru armor? I cannot think of any. <p></p><i></i>
** Vincula/Lucy **
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#6
Her you go here is three but in the read ive done over the years Im sure i have read it many times.<br>
<br>
Diod 14.27.6<br>
For the arrows were more than two cubits long1 and pierced both the shields and breastplates, so that no armour could withstand their force; and these arrows they used were so large, we are told, that the Greeks wound thongs about those that had been shot and used them as javelins to hurl back.<br>
<br>
Xen Anab 4.1.18<br>
Then it was that a brave man was killed, Leonymus the Laconian, who was pierced in the side by an arrow that went through his shield and cuirass; also Basias the Arcadian, who was shot clean through the head.<br>
<br>
Pausanius Description of Greece .1.21.7<br>
Linen breastplates are not so useful to fighters, for they let the iron pass through, if the blow be a violent one. They aid hunters, how ever, for the teeth of lions or leopards break off in them. You may see linen breastplates dedicated in other sanctuaries, notably in that at Gryneum,<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#7
Of course, Pausanias and Xenophon are talking about fabric protection: linen or leather, not metal.<br>
Diodorus at least uses the word <em>thorax</em>, which might imply an armoured cuirass of some kind -- Pausanias uses the word for the lamellar armour of the Sauromatae, but then he talks about <em>thorakes linoi</em>, "linen corselets", in your passage (1.21.7). <p></p><i></i>
** Vincula/Lucy **
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#8
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#9
Not sure if Homer's fantasy is admissable evidence here!<br>
Basically, it looks as if reports of spears penetrating thru "armour" refer to fabric garments, not bronze cuirasses.<br>
Unless someone knows different. <p></p><i></i>
** Vincula/Lucy **
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#10
Bear in mind that Homer's sources are very old and maybe he's referring to bronze spears transfixing who knows what kind or armour (Dendra style armour suits? )<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#11
Spears could and did pierce Greek bronze armour. Victor Davis Hanson mentions this in several places in "Infantry Battle in Classical Greece", and quotes several instances where it happened. IIRC it happened to the famous Theban general Epaminondas (sp?) among others.<br>
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During the initial clash a running hoplite had enough power to pierce a bronze cuirass with an underhand spear thrust. However I don't think spears had enough force to do this when the hoplite was standing still and not running as in the initial collision. <p></p><i></i>
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#12
Quote:</em></strong><hr>and quotes several instances <hr><br>
For those of us who don't have the book, how about quoting the several instances? (Of course I trust professor Hanson ) <p></p><i></i>
** Vincula/Lucy **
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#13
From page 162-64:<br>
<br>
"As the hoplites on each side began their final run in the last two hundred yards, they lowered the spear and carried it at the side in an underhand grip; this is clear from the literary evidence as well as scenes from vase paintings and sculpture. Momentum and power could be maximized through such an underhand thrust while on the move, and, of course, it was easier this way to maintain both speed and balance. [..]<br>
<br>
Occasionally in these initial attacks there were successful thrusts to the chest - fatal blows that pierced right through the breastplate. Jabs of sufficient force to penetrate bronze or wood armour probably could only be delivered on the run during the final dash. In these cases, as the hoplite covered with the shield in the moments before the collision, the spear would be angled slightly upward and driven at great speed into the large target of the chest. [..]<br>
<br>
That must be the point of Tyrtaois' reference to the soldier who 'sustains the beating wall of assault' and perishes 'with wounds to his chest, where the spear that he was facing has transfixed that massive guard of his shield, and gone through his breastplate as well'. The great Theban general Epamineondas perished thus in the initial phase of the battle of Mantineia; although his charge against the Spartan right wing had been successful, he fell with a spear shaft in his chest, leaving his men unable to capitalize on their victory. [The Spartan general] Aegesilaos, too, at Koroneia probably suffered a similar type of spear wound during the initial crash, since Xenophon says he was 'wounded right through his armour'."<br>
<br>
Hanson points out though that the groin or the upper thighs were the usual targets for the initial thust. After the collision the hoplite, provided he still had his spear, changed to the overhand grip and tried to stab over the opponent's shield. <p></p><i></i>
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#14
Quote:</em></strong><hr>... fatal blows that pierced right through the breastplate. ... The great Theban general Epamineondas perished thus in the initial phase of the battle of Mantineia.<hr><br>
Professor Hanson relies on Diodorus Siculus here (15.87.6), but Diodorus doesn't mention body armor. Only a spear thrust to the <em>thorax</em>. (Another linen cuirass?)<br>
Actually, there was some dispute as to how Epaminondas had died. Plutarch just says that he was cut down in the front rank, either with a spear or with a sword (<em>Agesilaus</em> 35.1).<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>Agesilaos, too, at Koroneia probably suffered a similar type of spear wound<hr><br>
I cannot find the Xenophon reference that specifies a spear wound. Can anyone else? <p></p><i></i>
** Vincula/Lucy **
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#15
Hom 13.395] neither dared turn the horses back and so escape from out the hands of the foemen; but Antilochus, staunch in fight, aimed at him, and pierced him through the middle with his spear, nor did the corselet of bronze that he wore avail him, but he fixed the spear full in his belly. And gasping he fell from out his well-built car.<br>
<br>
Hope this helps. <p></p><i></i>
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