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military nudists
#1
While I realize that the practice of depicting hoplites as nearly or completely nude is an artistic convention, I wonder if it might not have had some basis in fact. My example is the Chigi vase. Of the four figures whose lower bodies are visible, two are wearing kilt/loincloth things, two wear nothing except their armor. If nudity is convention, why this half-and-half thing? We know that Greeks were, to say the least, uninhibited in regard to (male) nudity. They were very observant, and may well have noted that when stabbed or cut on the bare flesh, wounds often healed cleanly while wounds made through clothes invariably became septic, so it would make sense to wear nothing at all where you were not armored.<br>
Any thoughts? <p></p><i></i>
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#2
John Maddox Roberts,<br>
<br>
I agree with you.<br>
<br>
As for thoughts… I don’t know. But evolving your line of thinking I risk suggesting that for Greeks wearing or not wearing loincloth was similar to our days’ wearing T-shirt or not. I noticed that some people in heat try to take off every possible clothing. I am this way myself.<br>
If I were in Greece with all heavy armor and in hot weather you wouldn’t see any kilt on me.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
warrior11<br>
<img src="http://www.chathome.com.ua/smile/182.gif" style="border:0;"/><br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#3
The propensity for Greek art to show nudity is regarded by most as an artistic convention. While they often trained nude at the "nude club-" gymnasion, the idea that they went to battle as the "uncivilized" Celts seems unlikely. Heroic nudity was symbolic of divine lineage or to glorify ahievements as "godlike." There was likely a difference in practices from polis to polis, but the idea of wearing any armor on bare skin makes me think of lots of unsightly rashes and unheroic itches. While ancient artifacts can be surprisingly accurate in some cases, the depiction of warriors "letting it all hang out" in battle makes me extemely skeptical that it ever happened in practice. Though indeed the depiction on the vase is curious and thought provoking.<br>
<br>
Wade Heaton<br>
Lucius Cornelius Libo<br>
[email protected] [url=http://www.togaman.com" target="top]www.togaman.com[/url] <p></p><i></i>
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#4
I, too, doubt that anyone ever wore metal armor against bare skin, having worn a good deal of the stuff over the years myself. But a minimal lining is possible. Greek greaves had only the thinnest lining, with a "spat" to protect the top of the foot. Those bell cuirasses on the Chigi vase could have similar lining, or the hoplites could be wearing the Greek equivalent of a t-shirt. Or maybe it's just convention, after all. <p></p><i></i>
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#5
No quilted undergarment to help to absorb the blows, then?<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#6
Aitor:<br>
Quilting has been used throughout history under soft ot flexible armor to absorb the shock of blows and protect the body from the armor itself, but the Greeks of this period wore plate armor, and plate distributes the shock of blows due to its own rigidity. If it is pierced or dented, padding won't help much. There might have been padding in the shoulder area, since that is where the weight of the cuirass rested, analogous to the "spat" worn to protect the top of the foot from chafing by the greave. <p></p><i></i>
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#7
John,<br>
Could you be more precise about that 'spat'? Was it attached to the greave or separately tied to the ankle?<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#8
Very difficult to say, since it shows up in only a few artistic representations, appearing as a small roll of padding between the top of the foot and the bottom of the greave. I suspect it was a separate piece, tied or strapped around the ankle, but that is just a guess. I'll see if I can locate examples. <p></p><i></i>
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#9
Thanks, John, I'll be waiting eagerly!<br>
My greaves (not very well shaped, to tell you the truth ) bit painfully on my feet after a few minutes and I think that a spat would be a good solution to make do with it until I can afford a custom-made new greaves.<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#10
Quote:</em></strong><hr>They were very observant, and may well have noted that when stabbed or cut on the bare flesh, wounds often healed cleanly while wounds made through clothes invariably became septic, so it would make sense to wear nothing at all where you were not armored.<hr><br>
If they did this I'd guess it was early on, before they figured out that most of the wounds were to the areas above and below the shield - head/neck and groin. There's a line from a poet (Tyrtaeus?) about an older hoplite sitting there after the battle with his testicles in his hands. Got to think they'd want some protection down there. <p></p><i></i>
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#11
sorry <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub152.ezboard.com/bgreekarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hoplit>hoplit</A> at: 11/19/03 18:15<br></i>
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#12
Thought I would add a few comments on the subject!<br>
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I think they would have fought naked my self, Greece is a very hot country cannot have seen them lasting long running around in battle with more than they had to!<br>
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Also I would imagine that that the greeks thought nakedness as a way of expressing there manhood in battle/sporting life in general. They had no hang ups with it!<br>
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We look at the subject from a modern viewpoint to often.<br>
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Has anybody tried/going to re enact a greek battle with there kit in the buff as a real examination of the issue?<br>
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Nude has it for me though am sure some wore some small piece of clothing.<br>
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By the way have to add have done classical nude modeling while at art college have seen little of there art where the warriors were clothed in the herioc period. <p></p><i></i>
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#13
If the celts fought naked... why not the Greek??<br>
<br>
M.VIB.M. <p></p><i></i>
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#14
Nakedness, as Plato recalls, was not practiced in "earlier times"(pre 7th century?) and at first it was scorned as strange. The Earliest vases with clear depictions of people are black-figure-wear from the archaic period. Even at that early date, we find most warriors wearing the Perizoma. So will some of the hoplites today, especially the light/skirmishing type have the balls to wear the perizoma? Certainly most ideal will be for the most well formed of our new hoplites to train in the nude. Although for best effect, this should be done with music(the right kind of course). A hoplite group unveiling this, would attract great attention. <p></p><i></i>
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#15
I would be happy to train as a hoplite in a Perizoma or traditonal! Naked!<br>
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Being of the well formed Hoplite variety I think somebody should portray the heroic period properly!!<br>
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I would be happy to give it a go for artistic purposes/TV/movie re-enactment purposes. Trouble is most groups in UK I think are probably to politically correct to do it? <p></p><i></i>
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