Oranges

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Simple Question - Did the Romans have Oranges?

[Jori]

No.

Oranges come from China, brought by portuguese merchants in the XVI century in Europe. Before that, another variety of orange was brought by arabs in medieval times.

I don't have any records of oranges before that. Not in Naturalis Historia of Pliny the elder.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Ah okay, thanks.

[john m roberts]

So that story of the Golden Apples of the Hesperides being oranges isn't correct?

[Epictetus]

I think the oranges we have today are the result of thousands of years of selective breeding. The Romans probably wouldn’t have recognised it. (Have you ever seen a ‘natural’ banana? I saw one in Cape Verde once and was flabbergasted.)

Pliny the Elder does mention the citron. If we are correct about what he was referring to, the citron is a tree of the same genus as the modern orange. It doesn’t sound very edible.

The citron tree, called the Assyrian, and by some the Median apple, is an antidote against poisons. The leaf is similar to that of the arbute, except that it has small prickles running across it. As to the fruit, it is never eaten, but it is remarkable for its extremely powerful smell, which is the case, also, with the leaves; indeed, the odour is so strong, that it will penetrate clothes, when they are once impregnated with it, and hence it is very useful in repelling the attacks of noxious insects. The tree bears fruit at all seasons of the year; while some is falling off, other fruit is ripening, and other, again, just bursting into birth. Various nations have attempted to naturalize this tree among them, for the sake of its medical properties, by planting it in pots of clay, with holes drilled in them, for the purpose of introducing the air to the roots; and I would here remark, once for all, that it is as well to remember that the best plan is to pack all slips of trees that have to be carried to any distance, as close together as they can possibly be placed. It has been found, however, that this tree will grow nowhere except in Media or Persia. It is this fruit, the pips of which, as we have already mentioned, the Parthian grandees employ in seasoning their ragouts, as being peculiarly conducive to the sweetening of the breath. We find no other tree very highly commended that is produced in Media.

Pliny, Natural History, XII.7.

And then:

Citrons, either the pulp of them or the pips, are taken in wine as an antidote to poisons. A decoction of citrons, or the juice extracted from them, is used as a gargle to impart sweet- ness to the breath. The pips of this fruit are recommended for pregnant women to chew when affected with qualmish- ness. Cirtons are good, also, for a weak stomach, but it is not easy to eat them except with vinegar.

Pliny, Natural History, XXIII, 56.

[PhilusEstilius]

When I was in Rome many years ago I did find that there were Oranges growing wild on the Capitoline hill, and also just outside of Pompeii on the way to the villa of mysteries there also again Oranges growing wild so I don't know if that may suggest anything.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I think the oranges we have today are the result of thousands of years of selective breeding. The Romans probably wouldn’t have recognised it. (Have you ever seen a ‘natural’ banana? I saw one in Cape Verde once and was flabbergasted.)

Pliny the Elder does mention the citron. If we are correct about what he was referring to, the citron is a tree of the same genus as the modern orange. It doesn’t sound very edible.

The citron tree, called the Assyrian, and by some the Median apple, is an antidote against poisons. The leaf is similar to that of the arbute, except that it has small prickles running across it. As to the fruit, it is never eaten, but it is remarkable for its extremely powerful smell, which is the case, also, with the leaves; indeed, the odour is so strong, that it will penetrate clothes, when they are once impregnated with it, and hence it is very useful in repelling the attacks of noxious insects. The tree bears fruit at all seasons of the year; while some is falling off, other fruit is ripening, and other, again, just bursting into birth. Various nations have attempted to naturalize this tree among them, for the sake of its medical properties, by planting it in pots of clay, with holes drilled in them, for the purpose of introducing the air to the roots; and I would here remark, once for all, that it is as well to remember that the best plan is to pack all slips of trees that have to be carried to any distance, as close together as they can possibly be placed. It has been found, however, that this tree will grow nowhere except in Media or Persia. It is this fruit, the pips of which, as we have already mentioned, the Parthian grandees employ in seasoning their ragouts, as being peculiarly conducive to the sweetening of the breath. We find no other tree very highly commended that is produced in Media.

Pliny, Natural History, XII.7.

And then:

Citrons, either the pulp of them or the pips, are taken in wine as an antidote to poisons. A decoction of citrons, or the juice extracted from them, is used as a gargle to impart sweet- ness to the breath. The pips of this fruit are recommended for pregnant women to chew when affected with qualmish- ness. Cirtons are good, also, for a weak stomach, but it is not easy to eat them except with vinegar.

Pliny, Natural History, XXIII, 56.

This is the same thing that the Crusaders had, judging by the description. They used it medicinally, and the edible "Sweet Orange" didn't come until the date Jori suggested.

[Kegluneq]

When I was in Rome many years ago I did find that there were Oranges growing wild on the Capitoline hill, and also just outside of Pompeii on the way to the villa of mysteries there also again Oranges growing wild so I don't know if that may suggest anything.

Unfortunately I think that's about as relevant as finding tomatoes in Italy. :/

Some great history of the orange here; I knew they didn't have citrus fruits as we would recognise them (hence why the Red Dwarf crew had to walk from Britain to Palestine to find one) but didn't know the facts behind its introduction later on.

"And she brings you tea and oranges, that come all the way from China..."