Modern Greek

[Jona Lendering]

Just a question. The leader of the Greek ND Party is called Antonis Samaras. Is his first name a rendering of ancient Adonis (because NT often represents the Latin D) or is it derived from Antonius (by some kind of iotacism)?

[Macedon]

Αντώνης - Αντώνιος is the the latin Antonius (pronounced Antonis - not Adonis -, stressed on the ω)

Άδωνις is Adonis (pronounced Athonis(th like in "this") and stressed on the A)

Adonis Georgiadis, a cabinet member of Antonis Samaras)

Greek does not change δ into ντ. To us it is a very different sound. What we often change into diphthong ντ is νδ. άνδρας / άντρας, χάνδακας / χάντακας. When we transliterate from Latin, D is made Δ, NT is kept.

[Lyceum]

Adon is from a semitic root meaning lord, cognate with "Adam" etc btw.

Yes its from Antonios, no its neither a iotacism nor a dipthong incidentally but an example of consonant assimilation.

Its not technically a "modern" Greek feature since this way of handling dentals has been part of Greek since the Mycenaean period e.g dative plural endings, later Greek handling of certain participle types where nt is a single beat phoneme etc etc.

Basically good chance many non Attic speaking ancients would have pronounced it like that anyway.

[Macedon]

Etymologicallywise, according to the ancients, Ἄδωνις derived either from the verb ἄδω (to sing) or by the verb ἥδω (to enjoy). They often give the following example : ἀδώνειος καρπὸς (enjoyable/tasty fruit).

[Lyceum]

Etymologicallywise, according to the ancients, Ἄδωνις derived either from the verb ἄδω (to sing) or by the verb ἥδω (to enjoy). They often give the following example : ἀδώνειος καρπὸς (enjoyable/tasty fruit).

Yes, folk etymologies are often amusing in this way, even with their impossible combinations. I myself tend to prefer the more scientifically rigorous approaches offered by modern linguistics.

In the case of Adonis specifically: a cult imported from the Semitic east, carried out in said manner, on said days, with said myths clearly comes from there.

[Macedon]

Aside from the fact that there is an ongoing debate regarding the semitic origin/influences of the said myth, Tammuz being a Mesopotamian counterpart (Thamuz called by the Syrians and Hebrews, according to Origenes), the name itself was given to the said man/deity by the Greeks and there is no evidence I am aware of of the name being adopted, since there is no similar name mentioned in the non-Greek versions of the myth. I do not see the necessity to interpret the name as an import although I of course cannot say that it isn't. Greeks did make up/give names altogether Greek to deities they adopted and there is no scientific reason to doubt that this is what happened here. Calling the great etymological lexica of the Byzantines "amusing folk etymologies" is not exactly constructive and I really doubt that there are real "scientific rigorous approaches" that have resolved the etymology of the said name, perfectly Greek in its appearance at least, with a meaning suitable to the myth. Even if there was evidence of the said myth containing a similar name, it again would have been understandable for the Greeks to interpret it (as was often the case) or just render it with a Greek pre-existent name that sounded similar. Hearing, for example, Adonai, they would easily render it Adonis without this meaning that the latter derives from the former. For Attis it would be a bit more difficult but not impossible. What remains as fact is that according to the Greeks, the name was of Greek origin and etymology, using it as a private name in their everyday lives.

Might it indeed have a non-Greek root? Of course. You certainly know more about the science of linguistics than me (I just know Greek...) and maybe there are more rigorous arguments regarding the said name? I have read the very informative "Ancient Greek Religion" by W. Kearns, but she offers no arguments as to the etymology of the name other than bringing forward that assertion. This is why I have always believed that this theory actually did not rest on any actual linguistic hard evidence or proof but on the assertion that being an imported God he has to have a non-Greek name, with the semitic language offering the best suited root. I would welcome any linguistic proof on the non-Greekness of the name Adonis.

[Jona Lendering]

Αντώνης - Αντώνιος is the the latin Antonius (pronounced Antonis - not Adonis -, stressed on the ω)

Thanks pal.

[Lyceum]

Actually yes Adonis is quite a concrete example actually for a variety of reasons. Linguistically, of course, you have the fact that it comes from a wide spread semitic root, as I said above, from which we get names like Adam et. It means "lord" and should probably have the sense of "lord consort" like the PIE root, though obviously this is unrelated, the semiotic strategy here is clearly the same.

Given that it fits so well in a semitic context, that the cult practices themselves are well attested in archaeological terms to be importations and that the whole cult is quite distinct from what we expect of "native" Helladic practices it is overall quite assuredly an import.

I can see why /adw/ etc might seemingly fit the context but two things. 1) It doesn't fit the context as well as the better attested semitic counter part 2) well the whole formation of folk etymologies are dependant on these types of glosses. Look at some of the Hellenistic attempts at defining thyoskoos in Homer; all of them seem sensible, but are linguistically impossible instead its more than likely it translates as /firewatcher/ due to numerous PIE parallels and the semantic sense.

I'm not sure what having a "clear Greek form" means in this context, well presumably anything in the Greek language has a Greek form since they had to adapt foreign elements, however we are quite easily able to discern formations which are clearly of non Greek origin: the numerous toponyms of Greece, formations in /inx/ certain /i/ stem names on the Knossos tablets. This is leaving aside whole clusters of vocabularly that were from outside Greece.

The use of folk etymologies as collected from the Hellenistic period is interesting and of itself. On one hand know, without a fully developed system of understanding phonology, morphology etc let alone related languages they really were sort of...stabbing in the dark. Its great usage, of course, is in the area of semantics and semiotics. In other words, whilst we can be pleasantly surprised by anything they hit up correctly the incorrect judgements offer invaluable insight into how the language worked at the time. I'm actually trying to read Deborah Gera's book on this matter now actually.

As for Adonis I'm not really sure what Kearns' says about the cult. In truth I actually heavily dislike the work of people like Kearns, Ogden etc; they're de specialising and generalising a really complex discipline which isn't helpful to anyone. All it does is confuse students, which means one ends up making retarded essays on necromancy in ancient Greece. Seriously. The best single textbook on Greek religion remains Walter Burkert's "Greek Religion". Now this should be on my desk....and I'm kind of panicking that I've misplaced it under my Hesiod notes. I hope so and that it's not lost. :S

Either way, turning to his "Structure and History in Greek Mythology and Ritual" he actually has quite a lot to say on Adonis. I'm too tired to go through it fully since I'm been working since 5am but his thinking appears to mirror mine, he calls Adonis one of the clearest examples of Greek borrowing (which is rarer than adaption) on linguistic, ritual and archaeological grounds. He cites the Greeks being aware of his foreigness via genealogical poetry and then goes onto discussion transmission etc. That's pp 99-110 roughly btw with about 30 other pages referenced in the Index.

So there we have it. Now, of course, explaining where from, how and when it got into Greece is really only half the fun. Anything serious has to discuss why.

[Macedon]

He does indeed (I just read the relevant part) but and I quote :

"As to Adonis, his case is the clearest example of a Semitic God adopted by the Greeks in the archaic period, and the Greeks knew it. Hesiod makes him the son of Phoenix, Panyasis an "Assyrian". Adon is a common West Semitic word, meaning "Lord", adoni "My lord". Still this is not a god's name, but a general title applicable to every god. Thus, it has been said that there is no evidence at all for Adonis cult in the Semitic world; and even a Greek etymology of the name Adonis was proposed by Kretschmer."

In his opinion, the cult is of Semitic origin and gives some arguments to support his opinion. Yet, he admits that the name of the Semitic god was always Tammuz" and mentions that "the cry of lament may well have been "hui Adon", "alas, Lord" as at a royal funeral. It is not the name which constitutes the identity of worship."

Personally certain of the link between the two cults, he then speaks of even more problems as to the link of the Greek and Semitic cults and again stresses the name problem, since in Cyprus, to him the probable meeting point of the two civilizations, the god was known with "quite different names", like Aas and Gauas.

So, W. Burket particularly stresses the problems of attributing the etymology of the name Adonis to a semitic root, although he seems to personally prefer it. His arguments are not linguistic but more of a well educated assumption and thinks that the fact that a Greek etymology has been also proposed by "modern" scholarship is worth mentioning.

I really do not see any certainty advocated here.

As for context, the fact that the semitic root seems out of context, meaning "god" generally, is the main problem. On the contrary, the word "edo", which means enjoy/being or becoming happy (from which the noun hedone derives), is closer to the traits attributed to the certain God.

Yet, I have still not seen any purely linguistic arguments as to the etymology of this name. Theorizing on cult links, yes, but linguistic evidence, which as you also stress, is much more important? You seem to support that there is such evidence and I have no reason to doubt you. Could you direct me to it?

[Jona Lendering]

Although completely irrelevant to the debate above, about the etymology of Adonis, I like to add this link to a lovely temple of the god in Lebanon, at Faqra. It was a very special place, covered in the snow. Although you won't see much on these pages, it was at certain places half a meter high, to the delight of the woman in our company who was wearing sandals. :mrgreen:

[Macedon]

beautiful!

[D B Campbell]

Greek does not change δ into ντ. When we transliterate from Latin, D is made Δ, NT is kept.

Trust Marvel Comics to get it wrong! :roll:
[attachment=4321]spainter-man.jpg[/attachment]

[Macedon]

hahaha ... good one... although last time I checked spiderman was not a latin word... Modern words do sometimes get transliterated with a NT today, as well as placenames etc when we for some reason want to keep their "original" pronunciation (Dacota, Denver, Dortmund, Doberman, Spiderman, Manchester United, Dick (the name of course..), Alladin) but in "proper/old & formal" Greek (katharevousa) it is still considered wrong and a barbarism. Old maps still call Denver Δένβερ and Dortmund Δορτμουνδ, even Aladdin was Αλάδδιν. Of course, I meant "ancient Greek". Yet, we still mainly use that rule, saying and writing Λονδίνο (London), Δουνκέρκη (Dunkirk), Εδινβούργο (Edinburgh), Μαδρίτη (Madrid) Πάδουα (Padua), Παδανία (Padania), Δανία (Denmark), Φινλανδία (Finland), Ολλανδία (Holland), Δουβλινο (Dublin) etc.

[Lyceum]

I can't post.

[D B Campbell]

I can't post.

When RAT did that to me last week, I clicked on the Preview Pane button and started typing -- as soon as the Preview stops showing what you're typing, you have found the word that's causing the problem. (There seem to be "banned" words.) Worked for me.