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Phalanx Mobility
#16
Quote:What other possible way could a spear of this length be held? Overarm would not be possible.

Of course, not overarm but overhand...
I certainly don't imagine a macedonian foot companion holding his sarissa like the classical era greek hoplites, who indeed held their spear --not sarissa-- overarm, as shown in vases paintings.
Now, forget the fact that this figurine is not entirely accurate. Indeed the shield's neck strap is missing. I chose it because the soldier's left hand is somewhat too big and that hand is my point, not his arm.
That left hand has the palm turned upwards.
After fooling about in front of my mirror with a broomhandle, I realized that with the palm turned downwards, like the man's right (rear) hand, I was able to align my left forearm --and thus the imaginary shield hanging on to it, parallel to my shoulders without having to twist my wrist into a quite uncomfortable position.
With the left (front) hand having the palm turned upwards (the accepted position), the shield will remain at an angle to the shoulders and leave an opening on your right side. Moreover, the more you extend your arm forward, the less protection you'll get from your shield which will end up not covering you at all, being almost perpendicular to your shoulders...
I hope I was clear enough this time.. :?:
Pascal Sabas
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#17
The mobility of close formations is mainly a factor of their frontage, pivoting become more and more difficult the longer the frontage of the unit, that is why in XVIII century armies normally deployed in long 3 ranks lines developed all sort of columns to move quickly around the battlefield, or even to charge. As for turning opposite directions, it would be done by countermarching rather than by turning in place.
AKA Inaki
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#18
I persuaded six friends to try Andonius idea.
The crime took place in cleared large living room.
Brumsticks and plastic mop sticks played the roll of pikes and our laptop bags became shields with telamon slunged over our soulders and looped cables trying to imitate the handles. (Is that reenacting or what?!!!).
Resisting the taunts of our wives and girlfriends we tried the manouvers.
Well Antonius you certainly have a strong point that left palm faces downwards. It certainly gives beter protection and it is easier to hanlde the the broom..whoops I mean pike!. In my opinion though, it works with pikes not spears.
Dan I agree with you that phalanx at least pike phalanx is older than classical times. Philip was a "MYSTIS" (a.k.a initiate) of the Kaveiric and Dodonean mysteries. This ancient practices were a way to preserve and transmit older knowledge. So perhaps he re-intoduced the pike if not inventing it.

Aryaman2 if the formation is not in SYNASPISMOS (a.k.a shild lock) than all troops can execute the about face command if need be. The last rank becomes the front rank. In classical times it was not a problem.
I have done it in a 100 men square formation carring 25 gilograms weight and holding my rifle diagonaly with byonet fixed. I was in the middle rankes On the "METAVOLI!" command you turn 2 times left and you look in the opposite direction. There is a way also to turn in one go. I plan to demonstrate this if Paul succedes the hoplites 2006 gathering to happen.

Kind regards
Stefanos
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#19
Stefanos
I don´t doubt that about face was possible, but countermarching was prefered, at least in XVI century pike formations, and I imagine it would be the same in Macedonian phalanx, because the front ranks were better equipped and better soldiers all around, so it was prefered to have them always in the front
AKA Inaki
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#20
Quote:Regarding the "phalanx". Homer uses the word many times and Professor Joachim Latacz has analysed the hexameter composition of the Iliad and demonstrated that it can be dated back to the time of Linear B, so it is possible that the phalanx was around a lot earlier than many assume. It is also possible that Homer's phalanx and the classical phalanx were different formations.

Homeros wrote the Iliad around 700BC and one of the earliest evidences or mentions of any kind of the phalanx formation was (according to what I've read untill now, correct me if I'm wrong) around 800BC. So, we could asume that Homeros used the formation and tactics of his own time to write the Iliad. Something like Hendrik Conscience did with his book "the Lion of Flanders" (a book he wrote in 1830 concerning a battle dating from 1302). Conscience used the warfare of his own ages to describe a battle 500 years before. Probably Homeros did a simular thing with his books. Although, that's what I think. The "modern" ancient Greek phalanx like we imagine (the Spartan/Athenian phalanxes during the Persian and Peloponesian Wars) would be originally used between 500 and 600BC.
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#21
Quote:Resisting the taunts of our wives and girlfriends we tried the manouvers.
Well Antonius you certainly have a strong point that left palm faces downwards. It certainly gives beter protection and it is easier to hanlde the the broom..whoops I mean pike!. In my opinion though, it works with pikes not spears.
Absolutely right about pikes-sarissas and not spears ô unsung hero of reenactment. I suppose the women's taunting was the hardest part of the experiment... Big Grin
Pascal Sabas
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#22
Ah the Ladies!!!!
The driving force behind men although they constantly complain they cannot undertand us. And their taunts!!! The Germans at Urkellae were anihilated by the Romans because their women at their rear taunt them that they were not men enough and they would give themselves to the enemy!
Better taunting than throwing rooftiles like the Argive lady who wacked Pyrros! (Or the Thespian ladies who browk the Thebans!) You see how bad it can be!!!

Aryaman I agree with you that complex "about face" could be performed but it was possible to turn faster if the comander wished so.
I think it was a question of the commander´s jugment of the tactical situation.
If he faced horsemen the quick change of front would be enough. If the opposition was infantry and he juged his ditance right the more complex manouver would be performed as described by ancient writers.

Dan yes I agree that it is more likely that Homer talks about his time but scholars talk of Cycladic (Aegean) pike armed infantry and they consider it a reality. Yes I agree spear armed phalanx was revelped more lately and in a more timeconsuming process but there is a chance that the pike block was earlier. I do not claim to have solved the mystery I just mention what I consider plausible.

Regards
Stefanos
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