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Battle of Marathon analysis: help
#1
Khairete all!<br>
<br>
Some of you may now, others won't, that I enjoy writing historical fiction as an amateur and wannabe writer.<br>
<br>
For a non-profit, charity fund-raising organizations, a group of writers are going to publish a short stories anthology, with all proceeding going for the fund.<br>
<br>
After much thought, I have decided to write a story about the battle of Marathon. While I have the picture pretty clear in my head, several doubts (some ancient ones still not resolved, and some only mine) have got in the middle. I am seeking your knowledge on this matter to reach some reasonable consensus, so I can try and write an enjoyable and as accurate as possible story about Marathon.<br>
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According to Herodotus the Persian commander Datis had with him some 26,000 infantry and some 1000 cavalry, but sites about the battle reports that there was probably less than 20,000... Is there any academic consensus about the whole numbers? (9000-10000 Athenians + 1000 Plateans, and some 20,000 Persian infantry plus 1000 cavalry?)<br>
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Secondly, it's said that Miltiades proposed a weakened center line of three ranks, while the wings maintained 8 ranks. Considering 20,000 Persian infantry, I get these numbers:<br>
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* 2,500 men of front line, and 8 ranks for the Persians, where the first and maybe the second line (~5,000) were spears and the rest (~15,000) archers (sparabara? would they add 1 more shields line and leave 5 ranks depth of archers?). How likely is that the Persian ranks were of a different depth? (maybe 12? 16?) This profoundly affects the army front length and, therefore, the number of hoplites the greeks had to put in the 3-ranks center to allow stronger wings.<br>
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* 1,858x3 ranks hoplites in the center, and ~321x8 each wing.<br>
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Now, lastly, how many arrows would be an archer capable of firing per minute? According to some rough calculations, based on the excelent Gary Brueggeman's site info about roman skirmishers and march elements, the archers could cover distances between 50 meters (direct bowfire) and up to ~180/200 meters (loft fire).<br>
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The hoplites could have run that distance in about one minute and a half, considering the amount of armor they had, and the beach condition on the terrain. Thus they would have to face about 15,000*A*K arrows per minute, where K less than 1 is a factor to take into account that the probability of all arrows going to the same distance is actually pretty small, and A is the number of arrows per minute that could be delivered by the archers.<br>
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And one last thing: is it possible that about 320x8 hoplites in phalanx per wing could overcome the 15,000 army by attacking its flank? I know they would have close to 0 probability of facing heavy infantry in hand-to-hand combat, and the greeks obviously won, but nevertheless, the numbers don't sum up very well (for example with 26,000 Persian infantry, the greek wings would be less than 200x8, which seems very little, however the Persian ranks were of just 8 people...)<br>
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any comments very appreciated, thanks!<br>
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P. Lilius a.k.a. Argyros <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p208.ezboard.com/bgreekarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=publiusliliusfrugiussimius>Publius Lilius Frugius Simius</A> at: 3/20/05 17:55<br></i>
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#2
Sounds like you need Osprey's [url=http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php?title=S0005&ser=CAM" target="top]Campaign 108[/url] volume :- "Marathon 490 BC" by N Sekunda. <p></p><i></i>
** Vincula/Lucy **
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#3
Dear friend,<br>
First of all I wish you every success in the effort you undertake.<br>
Some comments now.<br>
This time the economy was agrarian. The bigger fields of Asia could support larger populations and therefore larger armies. 10000 by Herodotus can be exaggeration but 50000 combatants and 50000 camp servants or slave rowers of the fleet with value only as laborers<br>
We have an estimate from Thucydides during the Peloponnesian war that the Athenian Army could field around 14000 hoplites. Not all of them took the field. We can safely assume that the Athenians fielded 10000 in Marathon at a time of accute krisis. Herodotous also mentions the tomp of the "douloi" translated as slaves but the ancient Greeks did a distinction between doulos-servant and sklavos-slave.<br>
So they were confident enough to arm them and let them serve as psiloi- light troops slingers and javelineers.<br>
The city of Athens also maintained a corps of Scythian bowmen slaves basically for police duties but the could be sent to war if necessary. 5000 light troops assuming that many hoplites would have at least one servant with them it is not unlikely with 10000 being quite within reason.<br>
Most people imagine the hoplites charge the plain of Marathon, but this is not very accurate.<br>
Hoplites advanced in open order with the light troops skirmishing in front of them and masking their movements.<br>
When the hoplites came in striking distance the light troops withdrew through their ranks and the hoplites closed their ranks and interlock shields (synaspismos!) and charged.<br>
Miltiades gave the order to attack when he saw the Persians putting their horses on their ships possibly for attempting to land at Faliro. Their cavalry advantage was negated.<br>
Xenophon in his "return of the 10000" describe the process of getting the Persian cavalry combat ready as an extremely difficult and time consuming process. There is no reason not to think that there was any different in Marathon.<br>
The Persian army was composed of a variety of subject peoples levies more concerned about their personal survival or looting and no particular desire to stand up against metal covered maniacs keen to skewer them with their spears. Not all these levies were archers. The best troops Persians and Scythians were at the center according to Herodotus.<br>
A Persian archer would have to deal with the annoynig skirmishers first. Sudenly the skirmishers would vanish behind the hoplites and then he would have to fight close combat against armored infantry, task that he would not relish.<br>
If your insparation came from playing DBA or DBM this maneuver is not well simulate in these game.<br>
It is very well simulated in WRG 6 or Warhammer ancient battles. Perer Conoly´s exellent books about Ancient Greeks have immages of the falanx advansing in open order.<br>
I hope I helped you.<br>
Best regards and keep up the good work<br>
Stefanos Skarmintzos<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#4
Dear Stefanos,<br>
<br>
thanks a lot for your comments, I've found them very inspired and well within reason.<br>
<br>
I've been recommended an Osprey book, but it's not available in my local bookstores, and ordering through Internet would take too long for me (deadlines, you know).<br>
<br>
Thus, until a further revision (after I've ordered the book, etc) the information I have from classical sources and academic comentaries will have to suffice. I've also read with great interest the web page you linked in another post in this forum about spears in ancient times and the way they should have been handled. The arguments the author exposes are strong, indeed, but I still see several point that need to be addressed before something firm can be accepted, and I am sure scholastics will raise similar points. Nevertheless it's a very valuable resource, I'll post a link to it on the resources forum.<br>
<br>
Back to Marathon, I am well aware of the role the psiloi would have had on the battle. Pending new information from Sekunda's book, my understanding is that not even the armies deploy on the beach is certain. If Athenians lined up so that their right flank was proected by the sea, as I have read in Herodotus(?), then we can draw a north-south front of battle, where the Persians charged South from the upper part of the beach, while the Athenians and Plataeans charged North from the lower part of the beach. If the Persians managed to get some cavalry back from the ships into the field, and it's plausible, as the battle took longer than a single clash of the troops would indicate (thus, one or more lulls must have happened in between, making the battle longer), then the most affected troops would be the Athenian left wing, which would be performing the enveloping maneuver around the Persian center after routing the right wing. Psiloi must have played a very important role in harassing the Persian cavalry long enough to avoid a flank attack on the phalanx, which would have probably fallen (even if it was light cavalry, specially if heavy cavalry like cataphracts were involved!). The fact that it didn't, means that either the cavalry was not involved in the battle, or that entered into the battle too late to have any effect. Some classical sources point to some cavalry presence, and therefore it's what I am modelling for my story. Intelligently managed, light infantry can manage light cavalry very well, specially considering the beach sand would have made the cavalry charge vary slow, and the left wing of the Athenian phalanx must have been pretty close to the limits of the beach, where trees and dunes would have made light infantry much more effective.<br>
<br>
Thus, we are basically in agreement about the existence of the Athenian light infantry. I'd like to know your thoughts about its role in holding Persian cavalry.<br>
<br>
As for the role of harassing the Persians before the phalanx attack, I am less sure, but nevertheless your depiction is very plausible. From what I understand, many Persians would have been archers, probably scythians and regular sparabara. These were two men, one holding a spara (shield) and a spear, another armed with a composite bow. At least half the troops would be sparabara. That gives, at least, 5,000 archers (considering some combat 20,000 troops). We know the Persian center pushed and routed the Athenian center, which means there was a considerable number of shield-bearing spearmen in there, or they wouldn't have been able to resist the phalanx charge, even being just three, four ranks deep.<br>
<br>
The trouble here is to determine the Persian numbers and their formation, because the Athenian one must match (more or less) their front line to avoid being overflanked. If there's some 20,000 Persian infantry in 8 ranks, that implies that more than half the Athenian hoplites must have been spreaded over the 3 ranked center to match the Persians (8 ranks the flanks, not reinforced with 16 ranks and suggested somewhere, that would mean the flanks would be barely 100 men front, which is pretty thin for a wing).<br>
<br>
I'd love to know the Persian formation, it would make everything pretty much easier.<br>
<br>
Anyway, the light infantry harassing the Medes before the phalanx attack would mean they had to face some 10,000-15,000 shield-bearing spearmen and 5-10,000 archers. Even if the average psiloi could be equal with a weaker spearman, I doubt they were able to affect too much the archers, who would be behind the shields wall and harassing the psiloi themselves. Of course, if instead of moving the light infantry to the left wing, we allow them to stay behind the phalanx, specially in the center, they would be able to keep harassing the farther ranks (archers) while the hoplites kept the shield-bearers busy. But in that instance, we would have to accept that the Meded were not able to deploy a single knight on the battle. If their ships were still on the shore, embarking cavalry, it's dubious they wouldn't try to deploy at least a small force (I don't think some "turmae" were *that* hard to deploy, and being some 30 horses each, two or three of them would be a force big enough to be taken into account, specially since the left and right Athenian flanks would be extremely vulnerable to a cavalry attack once they started to turn inside to attack the Persian center from the flanks and backs.<br>
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Some misteries still left to be thought. I'll appreciate a great deal any more light thrown over them.<br>
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As for gaming, I don't do that (though I admit I'd like to) and thus all my modelling is "by hand". I have some computerized drawings to get the picture clear, but there are too many variables for me to present a solid model as of yet.<br>
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Thanks for all!<br>
Khairete!<br>
<br>
P. Lilius a.k.a. Argyros <p></p><i></i>
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#5
Argyros Vincula khaire!<br>
<br>
I will certainly order Sekunda's book, thanks for the reference!<br>
<br>
Unfortunately, my deadline is such that I won't be able to make use of the book, at least in the version of the story (I may re-write the story in the future, using whichever information I have available then).<br>
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With this "bad news" in hand, I would really appreciate if you could throw some light on my doubts, either from the book, or from your personal knowledge.<br>
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I still have a week to tinker with the story (right now it's about 6,000 words, I may be adding or removing about 500) before submitting it to the editors. While I am aware of my responsibilities as a historical fiction writer, my main task in here is to spread awareness of Marathon, its importance (relative, but, from some points of view, paramount) for the western civilization and make an enjoyable reading. Thus my priorities right now aren't last-minute scholarly information about Marathon. Nevertheless I enjoy being as "correct" as I can possibly be within the constraints I'm given.<br>
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As this is a charity publication, and only my "reputation" (which I don't have) and the Historical facts (poor History, anyway) will be at the stakes, no money for my pocket, I'm only worried about correctness to the point I lose sleep, but not further :-)<br>
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Any help very appreciated, nevertheless, I like to be as correct as I can be at the moment I do something. Corrections will have to come after it (I am planning to translate the story to spanish after it's published, and I may change it to be more correct by then, and after that "backport" the changed to the english version.)<br>
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thanks for all!<br>
<br>
Argyros <p></p><i></i>
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#6
Thanks for your message.<br>
First of all I must confess that as a Greek I am ashamed that illegal built tourist resorts and the public works for Athems 2004 Olympics have destroyed that holy ground. It has changed substantialy for the worse. I hope the image I sent you will help. It depicts the place as it was at the time of the battle. The marshes were dried at 1880 A.D. to make land for cultivation. The river Kffisos went under ground at the late Medieval times. Nobody planed vinyards after 1907 A.D. The Greeks camped on the mount at the base of the map for fear of cavalry. The place is called Agrieliki (mount of wild olives). They formed at the basis of the mountain and charged<br>
with their left flank protected from the marshes and their right flank protected by the vineyards. Psiloi in the vineyards could cause serious problem for the Persians.<br>
I was possible for the Persians to post cavalry piquets to protect their stocade but as you said in you message.perhaps not more than 60. My opinion is possibly light cavalry (Arahosians with javelins). Piquet duty in hevy armor is not practical. Knights would have been some Skythian nobles but Herodotus claimed they fought on foot at the center of the Persian army. I asume that their horses must have been sent on the ships.<br>
Also Persian knights appar first time at the Persian civil war between Cyrus and Artaxerxis later. No evidence that existed at the time<br>
of Marathon. Since there was not the king present we must rule out the "immortals" too.<br>
My opinion on the deployment is 50000 Asiatic combatants with 60 of them light horse on the flank. 20000 would be the Persian and the Skythians holding the center and the rest would be warbands with an asortment of weapons. Their leaders could be armored but not engouh to make an impact and their lines would be haphazard.<br>
Psiloi throwing sling stones and javelines would keep the archers occupied. Their aim was not to close on the sparabara..<br>
Miltiades Athenian commander in chief who had followed Darios on his campaign against the Skythians knew the strngths and weakneses of the Persian army.<br>
He counted that the pooly motivated levies at the flanks did not have nerve and would flee if hard pressed. so "flanks would be barely 100 men front, which is pretty thin for a wing" could have been his risk wich paid off! Partial explanation for the mess in the center was the fact that its oveconfident commander general Stisilaos with 30 hoplites plunged in the Persian lines and were cut off surrounfed and killed (Falanx rule number one: Do NOT brake the lines!!!). It was possibly, the assistance of the psiloi that helped the line until the Athenian flanks.turned on the suprised Persians and Skythians. Psiloi wouldn´t come to grips if the can avoid it but they would dely the the Persian just long enough.<br>
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I hope I helped<br>
<img src="http://CDocuments and Settings123DesktopMarathon490BC" style="border:0;"/><br>
I cant attach the image. Give me email and I will sent it <p></p><i></i>
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