Re: DEVA 2012

[Robert Vermaat]

Trousers being worn by first century AD legionary re-enactors are another thing which annoys me. People start to feel cold so they say to themselves: 'the Romans must have got cold in cold weather just like me. They would have seen the trousers being worn by Germans and Gauls and thought: those seem like a good idea - I'll get myself a pair'. Yet I would like to see some evidence before people start using or recommending trousers or either type. We certainly know they were in use fifty to sixty years after the period most of us depict, but that does not necessary mean they were in use by legionaries as early as the mid first century AD, especially when they had so many other options for keeping themselves warm already which did not come from the 'barbarian' realms. People tend to forget that the Romans were not like us and did not think like us.

True, but they felt the cold like us and died of pneumonia as well. Like you I can get annoyed by people copying other people without understanding why. And right now, by far the most of 1st-c. re-enactors thinks it's a dogma that arms and legs must be bare. So did the Romans never cover their bare limbs when the temperatures dropped, or did they take 50-60 years to start feeling the cold? No trousers yet, agreed. But if not trousers, what?

[Teodor]

As last year, a great event.

About trousers
http://www.planetfigure.com/attachments/...jpg.41634/
Situla from Preaneste, Ist century BC

[Crispvs]

I don't recall advocating bare arms and legs in cold weather. In fact, I have been advocating cold weather kit as part of 'basic kit' to other re-enactors for several years now. However, as someone who has (on several occasions) spent over a week at a time above the snow line in mountainous regions in sub-zero temperatures wearing multiple layers on my torso, lower leg coverings and shorts (yes - you did read that correctly), I do not believe that covering the knees is essential to staying alive in the open air, even in waist deep snow, and my own experience and the fact that I am still alive would seem to support this. Those who know me will also be well aware that I do not carry much in the way of natural insulation about my body either (I believe I was once described as 'a thing of twigs' in fact).

For those unfamiliar with my views on what the Romans did when the weather took a turn for the worse, they are summarised here:
http://www.romanarmy.net/coldweather.htm

When the weather is cold I wear a tunic copied from one of the Thorsberg ones under either one or two Roman style tunics, along with lower leg coverings and socks (NOT modern ones). If I am off the display field I also wear a paenula. As mentioned above, I am hardly a twenty stone blob of fat and I feel the cold as much as the next man. Let no one accuse me of ignoring cold conditions and insisting on bare limbs. I do not. I just wish people would try out the well attested ways of keeping warm (which work extremely well) rather than simply assuming trousers are the only way to keep warm.

Thanks for reminding me of that situla Teodor. I was actually under the impression it was third century BC in date rather than first, but my memory might have been playing tricks on me. It certainly is a puzzling image. I believe that the last comments I read on it suggested that it might be some sort of priestly garb, given that he is in the process of sacrificing. It is puzzling nonetheless.

On a slightly different subject, in descriptions of mail, some people use the external measurement of the ring and others use the internal measurement. This can lead to much confusion. It is always useful to add either the words 'internal measurement' or 'external measurement' after the measurement itself otherwise someone will always get the wrong impression of what you are meaning.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

While I agree with a lot of what you say Crispus, I cannot help feel that to say they started wearing 'trousers' if you want, 50 years after the period most of us depict
may be ignoring the posibility that perhaps it did not become acceptable to depict soldiers in Bracchae until 50 years after the period we depict?
We know there is a source that states the citizens of Rome were shocked to see the troops from the Rhine looking and dessing like barbarians....69ADish....

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Byron wrote: WhIch group were you with pitor?

He is just behind you in the white sagum Byron!!! :wink:

Cheers Graham.

Piotr, I would suggest you shorten your trousers a wee bit and tailor them to fit snugly around your calves. That way they would at least resemble bracchae or feminalia as depicted on Trajans column!

[Crispvs]

"While I agree with a lot of what you say Crispus, I cannot help feel that to say they started wearing 'trousers' if you want, 50 years after the period most of us depict
may be ignoring the posibility that perhaps it did not become acceptable to depict soldiers in Bracchae until 50 years after the period we depict?"

This is of course possible but how on Earth could we know? We have to go with the evidence we have rather than the evidence we would like to have.
It is certainly true that Trajan's Dacian wars are just the present terminus ante quem for citizen soldiers in trousers rather than a definite date for their introduction. In fact, as you should know by now, I have never taken the view that trousers were not worn by legionaries until the early second century AD, only that we do not know at which point before that they began to be used. As we do not know this I do not feel that it is a safe assumption to make that they were in use as early as the AD 50s and 60s. Obviously I would love to see the terminus ante quem shift in the light of new evidence, but until that happens (and it may never do so) it remains Trajan's Dacian campaigns. Still, as I hope I have made clear already, I do not think that that provides any excuse to stand around in cold weather wearing only a single tunic and boots. We know they had plenty of other cold weather kit they could make use of and I have been advocating doing this for years. I, for one, do not intend to go down to exposure. I have seen in happen in very dangerous places and understand why it happens, namely lack of fluids, sugars (eg the natural sugars found in milk and fruit) and appropriate clothing. I do not wish anyone else to either.

"We know there is a source that states the citizens of Rome were shocked to see the troops from the Rhine looking and dessing like barbarians....69ADish...."

I think you might be confusing Vitellius in AD69 with Septimius Severus in AD193, when the 'barbaric appearance of the soldiers' (whatever this phrase might originally have meant) was certainly noted by the citizenry.

Back on topic for a moment, I too am already looking forward to next year's event.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thats possible, but I recall there were leements of the army of the Rhine who adopted local atire...
While not photgraphic evidence, it certainly is as good as we will get. i don't think hypothermia is worth waiting on it though..it may never surface.

However, the chap in trousers from BC perios, is sacrificing, but appears to be possibly a consul or signifer...he is holding the Aquilia..... mile:

[Nurglitch]

Piotr, I would suggest you shorten your trousers a wee bit and tailor them to fit snugly around your calves. That way they would at least resemble bracchae or feminalia as depicted on Trajans column!

I wasn't basing them on Trajan's Column, a pattern is very iffy when reconstructed based on sculpture alone. They are the Marx-Etzel pattern, to the best of my knowledge with the same dimensions.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Piotr, I would suggest you shorten your trousers a wee bit and tailor them to fit snugly around your calves. That way they would at least resemble bracchae or feminalia as depicted on Trajans column!

I wasn't basing them on Trajan's Column, a pattern is very iffy when reconstructed based on sculpture alone. They are the Marx-Etzel pattern, to the best of my knowledge with the same dimensions.

The Marx-Etzel pattern. What is that based on? The Thorsbjerg remains?
They have feet on them.
http://www.shelaghlewins.com/reenactment...iption.htm

BTW, that is what mine are based on, I also made them to fit the images from Trajans Column...

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Byron,

The Marx-Etzel pattern. What is that based on? The Thorsbjerg remains?
They have feet on them.
http://www.shelaghlewins.com/reenactment...iption.htm
BTW, that is what mine are based on, I also made them to fit the images from Trajans Column...

No it's not thorberg. I googled this:
[attachment=4229]marx-etsel.jpg[/attachment]
Karl Schlabow also analysed a pair of trousers found together with a a bog body near Marx-Etzel. These are mentioned in Susan Möller-Wiering's book, but in very little detail.

The trousers are from 45-125 AD according to the carbon dating. Like the Dätgen trousers, these are short (above knee-height) and so might more properly be described as breeches.

Karl Schlabow: Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland, figure 194, 195a and 195b

They were made from a single piece of woollen cloth, woven in the exact size needed, and cut and folded in a way that used all the available fabric. (A technique that reminds me of e.g. the way the tunic worn by the Egtvedt girl (Bronze Age Denmark) was constructed.) The weave is a z/s diamond twill in dark brown wool, with some variations in colour from almost black to light brown.

The circumference at the waist is roughly 135 cm, leading Schlabow to believe that the fabric would have been gathered in folds and held in place at the waist by a belt.
From: http://urd.priv.no/viking/bukser.html

There's also the Damendorf trousers, c. AD 135-335 (like Thorsberg but no 'feet', and the Dätgen trousers, c. AD 345-535 (shorter than the Damendorf.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Sorry, but googling Marx-Etzel I get Thorsbjerg, Robert.
That is an interesting pattern though, by Karl Schlabow, thanks.

EDIT: I see where i made the mistake though.

However, i would say that as we have no Roman trousers, but images of them, to base something on both is a pretty good estimation. :-)

[Vindex]

Seeing teis thread verge away from Deva 2012, how about a new thread about Roman re-enactment and trousers?

That seems like a very good idea to me although I have visions of Wallace and Gromit's "The Wrong Trousers" for some reason.

(And my interest is more in what cavalry re-enactors wear and based upon what evidence as opposed to line infantry).

[scotti73]

Marx etzel pattern makes excellent bracae, thats what mine are made too. Its down to the measuring to ensure a fit like trajans column shows.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Byron wrote: as we have no Roman trousers, and images of them, to base something on Thanks for spotting my grammar mistake... :roll: I could almost think some one had altered that...
:-?
Have another look through that trusty well worn source you keep by your side! :wink:

I wish I did....

By the way who is lifting up your tunica in your avatar picture. Is someone trying to examine your subarmalis!

Yes, mighty Artemis, Goddess of the hunt! (or in some places, also known as the 'Wind'! :mrgreen:

More Chester pics to enjoy.


Some Late Romans.

Graham.

However, as we utilise what few archaological remains there are available, and Iconography, the thorsburgh are as good as to base a set of bracchae on. i may see if my tailor can do something with that Marx Etzel pattern for a new set though.....

[Vindex]

Thanks for starting this Robert.

I thought I'd add a post to bring it to the front of the board for others who may be interested but who didn't venture into the original Deva 2012 thread.