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Re: DEVA 2012
#16
Thanks indeed, I had not found it yet, despite Robert telling me it had been created!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#17
Quote:Thanks indeed, I had not found it yet, despite Robert telling me it had been created!
:mrgreen:
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#18
I have made plenty of copies of the Marx-Etzel trousers for customers, and they are pretty wide (55inches to be exact) - it is thought they were quite short, probably mid thigh length as the original - it is also thought that the Marx-Etzel pattern could well have been a ladies pair of maternity underwear...

For the blokes, they have to be modified slightly, and made longer... but they do the job and the number of comments I have had about their durability suggests they may have been a 'daily' wear item of clothing which were suitable for long marches
Claire Marshall

General Layabout

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.plateau-imprints.co.uk">www.plateau-imprints.co.uk
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#19
I can see how they could be maternity pants as they certainly have alot of fabric around the waist. I've made two pairs one knee length and one full length and the best feature for me is there's no stress on the seams thus no exploding brace.
Richard Craig AKA Aulus Maximus
Cohors I Tungrorum
Cohors I Batavorum
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#20
We have Aulus Caecina, a legatus in charge of the legions of Vitellius, wearing bracae in 69 C.E. (Tacitus, Hist. 2.20).
M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER
(Alexander Kyrychenko)
LEG XI CPF

quando omni flunkus, mortati
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#21
Thanks Alexander, that's the guy I was refering to earlier! Confusedmile:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#22
http://laudatortemporisacti.blogspot.co....users.html

Collection of ancient refrences to trousers. (most if not all refer to them as Barbarian fashion and very non-'Roman'!)
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#23
Quote:http://laudatortemporisacti.blogspot.co....users.html
Collection of ancient refrences to trousers. (most if not all refer to them as Barbarian fashion and very non-'Roman'!)
Nice, but there are more of those. One:
SHA Severus Alexander XL, 5-11 (on the emperor wearing white trousers as well as leg wrappings)
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#24
Hi all
This thread started out as a very promising articale on trousers used by the Roman Imperial Army. All of a sudden it jumped into "these are the only type of trousers one can wear" type thread. The above links and comments are very educational and informative but i think that when one reads them one is under the impression that trousers can only be made to the above said specs. This i have an issue with.
As a legionary stuck in the the "bowels" of the Empire where the weather at best is bad,i think one would improvise and do anything to keep warm...ie make one's own trousers even out of old blankets for example.
Yes we have surviving items that provide excellent resource's for reconstruction, but...but...is this correct for the tens of thousands of troops disperesed over thousands of miles?
A hand stiched pair of trousers made out of an old blanket could be as accurate as the existing examples above, but just has not been found yet.
All i'm saying is that the Empire was very very big and existing examples are very very rare....absence of evidence....blah blah blah....i hate that phrase.
Kevin
Kevin
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#25
Hi Kevin,

I would not say it was that much restricted. Just finding out from sources and finds what can be used here.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#26
Hi

Faced with the ridicule of going out in public wearing a skirt, it must be an inbred Anglo-Saxon thing that as soon as there is a slight breeze there is an urge to put on trousers. After all Legionaries must have followed the local fashions and trousers and other garments in all sorts of interesting patterns and colours could be bought in the local shops because apparently traders outside Roman camps sold them. Failing that of course they could always loot them on campaign once they had tracked down the nearest convenient store. There are several flaws with this line of approach.

Firstly it seems to have been common Roman practice to wear more of everything first and soldiers were issued with regular supplies of clothing which they had to pay for. It was probably their single main expense. There is evidence at Vindolanda in the tablets for over-cloaks and under-cloaks. Does any re-enactor wear them or has anyone tried? Perhaps if they did and found they were unable to move swaddled in all these clothes it might be because as is so common amongst re-enactors that the garments are not the correct size or weight. I guess this is because really accurate clothing today would be just as expensive if not more so than the armour and after all a chap wants to spend his cash on the exciting shiny pointy stuff, which is great until that breeze comes along! Then its down to the shops presumably for those trousers!

Secondly it is somewhat ironic to discover that the sophisticated Romans basically produced very simple clothes. Usually just uncut garments made out of rectangular pieces of wool material. It was the barbarians who actually produced tailored garments like trousers. These garments are not something which could be simply made up from an old cloak by the average legionary much less his modern counterpart. The same would apparently go for the Germanic long sleeved tunics because it seems re-enactors consistently fail to achieve the narrow tight fitting sleeves these garments had with the very narrow cuffs. These are always shown in Roman art and in the archaeological finds. Equally the trousers are very tight fitting. Make a mistake with those and a chap will have something more to complain about than the cold. Not a good idea. The simple solution again would be the Roman way. Cut up the old tunic and make them into leg wrappings or bindings. Again simple shapes.

Thirdly what was local clothing? If you go by Roman sources literature and art, not much and I mean not much. Barbarians are frequently depicted nude or just wearing a cape. But then again according to one Roman writer the natives in Caledonia wore nothing and spent most of their time underwater which was one convincing explanation for why the Roman could not find them much less politely borrow their clothes. However we should remember that even as recently as three hundred years ago natives in the far North of Britain wore nothing more than a blanket wrapped around themselves with some lower leg covering. Of course their life expectancy might not have been great and neither will the average re-enactors be if they wear that sort of thing everyday in all weathers.

So I suppose we come back to the old argument of how accurate do you want to be. I can only say that on the only time I wore a reasonably accurate wool paenula in action so to speak, I was far warmer than my comrades who were wearing inaccurate sagum cloaks, they were not large enough and could barely wrap their material around themselves. So being as accurate as possible sometimes has it's advantages over looking reasonably correct.

For once this is not all guesswork, the evidence is there. Nonetheless I will disappear behind my cloaking device to avoid being called a nit picker.

Finally a P.S

I was reminded by Claire's earlier post about the possibility that the trousers she had worked on could actually have been female maternity wear! It is equally likely that local patterned clothing (tartans) belonged to women. The Huldremose dress was patterned this way but the Thorsberg tunic was not, it was plain red by modern accounts. The trousers too were an un-dyed colour. So you could be faced with the possibility of being mocked by the modern public for wearing a skirt and equally laughed at if you went back in time by the ancients for dressing like a woman.

Trousers too seem absent from the later Pictish Aberlemno warriors, even their cavalry, although one Pictish crossbowman apparently does have a cloak which had a chequerboard pattern. It was used as a crafty form of camouflage according to Phil Barker, but what the pattern was based on is not clear, presumably that tiny fragment from Falkirk but who owned that originally or from what type of garment it came from if any, is open to debate.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#27
Quote:For once this is not all guesswork, the evidence is there. Nonetheless I will disappear behind my cloaking device to avoid being called a nit picker.
Never that Graham, thanks for that very informative post. Your remarks towards modern reenactorisms are well-noted, because (as ever) they are correct! :wink:
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#28
Thanks Graham, I usually wear a paenulea..common sense dictates it often...

However, I also wear bracchae or feminalia, and leg wraps!
And when it's good and warm, just a tunic!
as it is cut to the correct dimensions, there is a lot of exta, which tends to bunch up
under my subarmalis and makes me look very paunchy! Wink

However, I am warm, and more importantly, well padded, compared to the slim jim's and jimettes who
wear no or little padding so they can maintain that sleek, look at me I'm slim and fashionable!!

Alos, my longer sleeved tunics have the sleeves tailored to give the tighter fit,
thanks to a certain lady who is quite a good seamstress!
Pity events prevent me from utilising her skills more.
Some people like to hog all the tallented ladies for their own ends... Wink
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#29
Hello.

Could that simple pattern (Max ones) be made in leather? Have anybody prove that yet?
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#30
Quote:Hello.

Could that simple pattern (Max ones) be made in leather? Have anybody prove that yet?

Purists look away now... no evidence per se but practical application (if, from your avatar you're doing cavalry impressions and interested in leather breeches).

I have made two pairs on this pattern; one in leather and one in a coarse suede as riding a horse on a leather covered saddle in woollen trousers is not an act of war!! (not for long rides and hours in the saddle)

The leather ones squeaked terribly and any Barbarian would hear you coming a mile off; the suede ones gave me a perfect seat on a horse, however, with a nice bit of traction and less prone to stretching for some reason. They wear smooth over time but don't squeak at all.

A bit of tailoring was required to stop too much leather in the waist band but it also added a bit of padding.
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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