Why can\'t we all just work together! Deva 2012

[Marcus Caecilius Avitus]

Not wanting to put words in Guy's mouth, I feel i do not what he's getting at!

A large event draws a huge spectrum of visitors MOPs etc. Whilst there will be a handful of well read individuals who can quote Livvy, and can and want to discuss the relative merits of butted vs rivetted maille. There will be a large number punters who have a fair bit of knowledge and want to engage with the reenactors and deepen their knowledge (if only a little). The vast majority of attanedees (like it or not) are family type individuals who have come out for entertainment over everything else. Whlist Frankly, they don't care what we are wearing, and what we know, this isn't an excuse for a 'plastic parade'. But it does lend weight to the concept of the 20ft rule ie; if you can't spot the difference (innaccuracy) from 20ft,it's acceptable.

Within this spectrum there is alo a place for the reenactor who wears a hand loomed tunic, hand made armour and a scutum painted with casein paints (I'm gulity of the last 2).

The thing I feel is most important is that we do accept the troops that don't have fully accurate kit as much as we accept the historical nerd (who can put the public to sleep after 5 minutes).

These events are entertainment AND education in the finest Roman tradition! Education is important across our different standards so that those with the 'less accurate' kit can speak with authority about the inaccuracies and hopefully in time improve.

Those who try and nit pick and point score need to realise that they are on to a loser (a certain vocal baord member in a previous thread shot hiself in the foot, criticising others seg's only to admit his own was a poor fit) :???: When you see a big event like This is Deva you (should) realise that the event as a whole has a much bigger imapct than the sum of it's parts. If we get sniffy over who's group and kit is best (which of course is mine) we won't work together and we get stuck with 10 milites doing a display when really we want is a chohort. :grin: That's got to be worth putting aside differences.

It really goes back to Guy's opening question 'Why can't we all just work together?'. Come to This is Deva 2013, check in the attitude and differences at the gate, take part in something fantastic and huge, share your knowledge face to face over a beer in the evening, and go home tired with happy memories and a big grin. :mrgreen:

[Cheyenne]

I had an awesome day on the Saturday with the Batavian Auxilliary supplying them with food, drink and kit repairs. My hat goes off to Guy, Paul and the rest of the organisers for putting on what was quite a spectacle. Although the weather was pretty sh-e-i-te, people were interested, co-operative and generally very happy.

I wasn't around on sunday, it sounded like a complete weather nightmare - I commend everyone who stuck it out. I was in a tent in a field at a festival... so I was marginally less warm myself

[Graham Sumner]

Well said Mark!

Mark Downes wrote:
share your knowledge face to face over a beer in the evening, and go home tired with happy memories and a big grin.

Well I for one certainly did! Thanks again chaps!

While congratulations must go to all those re-enactors who turned up and stayed over on the Sunday, it should be remembered that there were also members of public about on the Sunday too. They certainly cared enough to turn up in miserable weather which would have weeded out all those not really bothered, so I do not entirely subscribe to the view that all the public do not care.

There are many other events where unlike Chester you have to pay an entrance fee to get in and that may also be after travelling some considerable distance. If anyone bothers to do that they must care a bit. I know I have done it myself and some groups have been unfortunate to see me turn up at their shows as a fee paying member of the public who cares!

I would also disagree with the view that a film like 'Gladiator' was popular simply because it was inaccurate. Basically in my opinion the reason it was popular and other films perhaps more accurate were not was because, as any Roman games editor would know, they put on a good show!

However there is no reason why a good show cannot be as accurate as possible as well as entertaining and for the most part that is what everyone is striving for.



Graham.

P.S As well as the event in the Netherlands, the Chester event also coincided with the Gallo-Roman festival at Saint Romaine-en-Gal with many re-enactors from France, Spain and Italy. It also came just a few days after the two week Tarraco Viva Roman Festival in Spain. These are all regular events, so just a thought perhaps on future scheduling for the Chester festival.

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

Within this spectrum there is also a place for the reenactor who wears a hand loomed tunic, hand made armour and a scutum painted with casein paints (I'm guilty of the last 2).

The thing I feel is most important is that we do accept the troops that don't have fully accurate kit as much as we accept the historical nerd (who can put the public to sleep after 5 minutes).

So true. To me, as long as people try to improve their kit each time they go out, they're going forward. That's great! If people do this, why would ANYONE ever criticize them? I don't. If someone asks me for help, I try to give it. Shouldn't we all, as Roman reenactors, help each other out?

Anyway, I KNOW where my faults lie. I'm not happy w/ a lot of my kit and this last weekend where it was so hot (in the mid-90's -- that's in Fahrenheit), I was just too tired and didn't feel like doing anything. I had been sick all week and just didn't feel like putting on armor when it was that hot. SO sue, me, I'm getting old and just like if it's freezing and my feet are killing me, when it's that hot, I'd rather sit in the shade w/ comrades and BS about Roman things. As it was I improve dmy kit, learned some things and had a great time at Roman Days.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I admire your honesty, Marsh!


Cheyenne, was nice to meet you finally! Still never managed to get those measurements done though, so perhaps next time I am home?

i agree, if you are going to nit-pick, you should really be perfect yourself!
And also, I agree, it is good to try and improve your kit as best you can afford,
and while not shunning those with less than perfect kit, helpful advice is (usually) appreciated by all! (except by those who think they know better than everyone else to start with)

Any yes indeed, Marcus Caecillius, your group did have the best kit (after mine) :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[Robert Vermaat]

(I also lost 2 kilo's that weekend!)

I hope you did not find them again!

[Cavok]

I think I left them in the trench mate.

Saw some late Romans picking them up.

[Robert Vermaat]

I think I left them in the trench mate.
Saw some late Romans picking them up.

Not me! I lost one myself! :lol:

[M. Demetrius]

If the Late Romans were ever on time, they wouldn't be late. Am I right?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, they were never early, at any rate.... :-|

[Paul Elliott]

I was rather spoilt when I joined re-enactment, because I joined Quinta at South Shields in the north of Britain. Run by an archaeologist, Alex Croom, the guide book is a wonder, with patterns for 3rd C clothing, drawings of relevant brooches, shoes, spoons, etc, lists of suitable 3rdC names ...

The beginners guide, and the ethos of the group, was explicit. Everything but underwear needs to be 100% authentic. That's it. The kit list started small, a beginner should have ... soft kit, cloak, bowl and spoon. It went on to describe other things as the recruit had money or time to gather them. Armour, sword and helmet were much later on.

It stuck with me ever since.

Currently I attend small shows, sometimes we get very few visitors depending on the weather, but I can tell you now, we are as authentic as if we were at a massive English Heritage event, and expecting to bump into Mr Coulston or Mr Bishop themselves! Its a matter of pride.

That said, I have made concessions in the past, particularly as I gathered new kit. My Late Roman belt was made up out of a purchased buckle and strap end, but bronze stiffeners and hangers recycled from a Deepeeka scabbard. I still use the belt, I made it, and I'm proud of it! I had a shoulder bag of modern chrome tanned leather, but replaced it a couple of years later after some pointed it out to me.

Re-enactment for me has been a mixed attraction, I like to teach a little to the public (I am an educator and a writer), but more than that I like to experience the clothing, the weight, the food, the discomfort, the chance to make the same items Romans did... It's an experience for me. So I dilute the experience if I sleep in a sleeping bag or eat a tin of curry for dinner or wear Roman boots with rubber waterproof soles... why dilute the experience?


But that's MY reason for re-enacting, it isn't everyones. Some want to look cool (OK I do too!), and to participate in group activities, what they eat for dinner or the weight of their shield is not as relevent for them, its about entry level kit, what do I need to get on the field?

[Magnus]

First of all, this is an excellent thread, and addresses one of the key issues I have with personalities in any era of reenactment. Second, the more I am reading about you Brit and UK groups, the more I love you guys and gals lol. Fundamentally we are on the exact same page and share the same points of view on reenacting. And you aren't afraid to call people out on things. People after my own heart (must have something to do with me being part English).

Guy, and Marc and Henk (and many others...this is a high quality thread!) brought up great points. We need to work together. If some groups equipment standards are lower, they should be encouraged to come out more, not shunned. Why? It's simple. The more exposure to proper, or rather better equipment will set an example for them to try and attain. Acquiring better equipment is a long, long process. Since I started in 2001, I've modified and replaced all of the kit I started out with, and it's still a work in progress.

To shun people based on their gear is rediculous. You cannot speak of educating the public in the same sentence as denigrating other reenactors for not having proper gear, or telling the public misinformation. They simply need educating as well. Why should they be any different?

Unfortunately, garbage/elitist attitudes exist in all time periods. This reminds me of a story of an 1812 event, where two older teenagers attended an event, with horrible gear. They had made it themselves, using what very few resources they had (references and money) and simply wanted to come out and experience reenacting. They were turned away. That is unacceptable. They should have been helped, given spare gear, or shown how to acquire better. Certainly they should have been allowed to attend that day. Now they probably aren't reenacting.

Without doing a survey to see what the public actually retains from events, it's very hard to say what they are looking for. I seriously doubt, on a personal level that they are coming to be "educated". They want the spectacle, they want the entertainment. I feel this is the vast majority of people's expectations of a reenactment event. Having said that, I don't think it's wise to provide misinformation either, or have a low standard of gear if you can improve on it.

To get at the heart of this issue. Piotr, your attitude is very intolerant, and doesn't belong in a hobby oriented environment with a multitude of demographics. You are clearly taking this hobby to an obsessive level (the olive oil and stirgil thing is just creepy). But what is very ironic, is your desire to have more accurate gear, THEN talk about having custom made armour. Are you for real? It would appear that your knowledge of Roman military gear is a bit narrow. There is no plausible way that the rank and file soldier had CUSTOM fitted gear. Your ill-made, ill-fitting equipment is more accurate than you are giving it credit for. Ask Dr. Bishop. And I am 100% positive I could pick out more anachronisms with your kit or impression.

If you want to (in your mind) be more authentic that is fine. But don't be pushing your crusader-like attitudes on anyone else. It's unfair and unwanted. What you do with your own time is your business. But don't think you're going to convert anyone to your line of thinking, especially by being rude and hostile. You are no more important than anyone else, in reality. Except in your own mind. Not an attack, just a fact.

Can I say again that you Brits absolutely rock?

[Paul Elliott]

Those two guys are brilliant. They're the kind of people you need. I know someone who just piles in lots of money to buy expensive, good looking kit that he thinks is better than anyone else, but I have far far more respect for guys like this who struggle hard to get involved making what they can, doing their research and getting on the field. Because when they're given just a little bit of guidance they're going to bring a massive amount to the group they join.

This reminds me of a story of an 1812 event, where two older teenagers attended an event, with horrible gear. They had made it themselves, using what very few resources they had (references and money) and simply wanted to come out and experience reenacting. They were turned away. That is unacceptable. They should have been helped, given spare gear, or shown how to acquire better. Certainly they should have been allowed to attend that day. Now they probably aren't reenacting.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Matt, I think your arguments are in themselves conclusive. However, I think behind all this is a serious other problem. Starting to think from the end: What do people who disguise themselves as Romans want?
Do you want to spend your time
1. making a historical LARP with friends, without audience?
2. educating people?
3. making a historical LARP with audience?
4. making a mix of the above?

or

Do you want to attend
1. Museum events?
2. Historical festivals?
3. historical LARP-like events?

Once you now what you want to do, you will quickly know, what kind of "authenticity-level" you need.

If you are at museum events, which are funded by tax money, you have an obligation to have a super-authentic kit, and you must have a profound knowledge about the objects you wear and show, PLUS a profound knowledge about the context of these objects. You are being payed to educate. You must fulfill the museum standards and academic standards.

If you go to historical festivals, you should have a kit that meets a certain standard. The standard is usually defined by your group and the event organizers. It can be higher, but not lower.

If you go somewhere where there is no audience, you could theoretically also wear a pink bunny costume. It´s you private thing.


Audience: It depends also on the kind of event you attend. At a museum or other educational facility, the audience´s expectation towards authenticity is extremely high. There have been studies in Germany which investigated this (compare: H.-J. Pandel, Authentizität, in: U. Mayer et al. (Hg.), Wörterbuch Geschichtsdidaktik, Schwalbach/Ts(2006), p. 25-26., see also »Authenticity and Museums«. In: Museum Audience Insight: Audience Research, Trends, Observations from Reach Advisors and Friends, vom 7. April 2008 ( http://reachadvisors.typepad.com/museum_...ty-an.html ))

This is basically also the case on other, "normal" audience, but there it depends on what target audience the festival / event has. But the visitors ALWAYS EXPECT everything to be 100% correct. So, if asked, people disguised as Romans should be able to tell the audience what is not correct on their impression. This may become problematic, if there is no communication between audience and the people disguised as Romans.


Terms:
1. Reenactment: A difficult one. We should´t use it for what most of us do, nor should we call ourselves "reenactors". This is why:
the term is academic, and describes an academic method, in which people re-play, or re-stage a specific historic situation under controlled condition, with the goal to investigate how things may have developed/happened, all this specifically based on sources, and the whole thing needs to be documented.
(R. G. Collingwood, The Idea of History, Oxford 1961, p. 39, 283-302. )
So the term is as difficult as "Experimental Archaeology".

2. "Living History". Well, a misleading term. But O.K.

3."Historical theater" would make sense. "Historic actor". We now call our gladiator show in fact "Gladiatorentheater", for that´s what it is, even if the fights are not choreographed.

So: Find out what you actually do or want to do. Then find a term for it. Thus different terms could describe what people do and prevent misunderstandings between these groups. I think this forum would be a very good place to have such a discussion, and to find consensus. A while ago I started a poll about this, but unfortunately only few people voted. We should see such a discussion as a great chance to improve what we do, and to improve our cooperation, since cooperation and integration are, if we could learn something from history, then it would be this, always making things better than separation does.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Those two guys are brilliant. They're the kind of people you need. I know someone who just piles in lots of money to buy expensive, good looking kit that he thinks is better than anyone else,

There are people like that???? hock: hock: hock: :lol: