Is this helmet legal for SCA?

[Fwinzor]

I have seen these before, though I'm not quite looking for gladiatorial. I have seen some very interesting helmets having a mask mask covering nose down and the rest a grill, though none in a roman-style.

[Draconis]

My bascinet with the interchangeable faceplates ( grill and pig face ) were made for me by an SCA armorer, known in the SCA as Duke James Greyhelm, who, at least when I bought it was able to quit his job and become a full time armorer. Mundane name: Jim Early. Whereabouts now? Not sure, I haven't seen him in over 21 years. Pretty sure he's around though. Oh yeah, this was in the Kingdom of the West ( Northern California)

[Draconis]

Whatever you do though, the value of having as much visibility as possible cannot be stressed enough. A mask helm with only the eyeholes to look out from will mean you will almost be flying blind so to speak. With the cheek padding your eyes will be a good inch or more away from the holes. Blows will be coming in from many directions and there is a good chance you won't see what gets you. My first helm was a home made great helm with slits for eyes maybe an inch or just under an inch up to down. I managed with it, but there were many blows that I just didn't see til it was too late.

[Fwinzor]

Thank you for the information, I'm sort of meeting both ideas half way. I'm talking to Suhel here on RAT about a face mask helmet but, rather then eye holes, a grill above the nose area, this being fashionable and functional

[Maximus Atreus]

Hey Cody, check out the armor archive classifieds section. A user there, JohnRS421, is selling his locking cheek plate Roman style SCA helm. Like everyone says, you won't find a historically accurate Roman SCA helm, but you can find some that are constructed to be impervious to rattan, which takes precedence in armor made for potentially lethal SCA combat.

And if you come to Pennsic, stop by Rome Camp and say hi!

[Bruuk]

What means SCA?
Some kind of fighting league?

[Maximus Atreus]

Yes it is! It SCA stands for the "Society for Creative Anachronism". We use manal rattan sticks for weapons, and emphasize technique and safety over historical accuracy. But historical accuracy is of course highly encouraged, within the limits of safety and the SCA rules.

[Crispvs]

Whilst I admire the SCA's desire for safety, as a former steel weapons fighter, I have seen far worse injuries inflicted by 'safe' SCA weapons than I have ever seen in full contact steel weapons combat. I think that sometime people feel that because they have a 'safe' weapon in their hand they can bash people as hard as they like without the same regard to genuine safety that someone genuinely in combat (and I do not mean re-enactment combat here) has to have in order not to become a casualty. Hence the need for helmets with far more face protection than was often felt necessary by genuine fighters of the past.

Crispvs

[jvrjenivs]

Whilst I admire the SCA's desire for safety, as a former steel weapons fighter, I have seen far worse injuries inflicted by 'safe' SCA weapons than I have ever seen in full contact steel weapons combat. I think that sometime people feel that because they have a 'safe' weapon in their hand they can bash people as hard as they like without the same regard to genuine safety that someone genuinely in combat (and I do not mean re-enactment combat here) has to have in order not to become a casualty. Hence the need for helmets with far more face protection than was often felt necessary by genuine fighters of the past.

Indeed. This is exactly why I prefer steel over wood or even SCA/LARP weaponry. It gives to much people a false feel of savety. When using arms it is always important to remember you're using a weapon, a tool made for a certain purpose, namely to kill or at least damage your opponent.

[LVCIAN FIDELIS]

Whilst I admire the SCA's desire for safety, as a former steel weapons fighter, I have seen far worse injuries inflicted by 'safe' SCA weapons than I have ever seen in full contact steel weapons combat. I think that sometime people feel that because they have a 'safe' weapon in their hand they can bash people as hard as they like without the same regard to genuine safety that someone genuinely in combat (and I do not mean re-enactment combat here) has to have in order not to become a casualty. Hence the need for helmets with far more face protection than was often felt necessary by genuine fighters of the past.

Crispvs

Crispvs,

I assume by "Genuine Fighters of the Past", you mean actual Professional Soldiers throughout history.

Under that assumption, lets be fair. Standard issue front rank Miles were expected to fight and die. Their safety was not a concern for their superior officers so long as discipline was maintained and the objectives were achieved.

The armour we wear makes certain non period allowances not because the weapons we hit each other with aren't safe, or because the tactics we use aren't safe, but because in a press of up to 500 people on a side swinging weapons in earnest things happen. And while I trust my opponents to keep my safety in mind, my safety is my first and foremost concern.

In a battle like the ones at Pensic, Gulf Wars, or Estrella War I will make the sacrifice a bar grill on my helmet when the alternative may be a 300lb man, wearing 80lbs of chain, metal elbows and knees accidentally falling elbow first into my unprotected face.

Count Syr Marius Lucian Fidelis
Kingdom of Calontir

[Maximus Atreus]

Whilst I admire the SCA's desire for safety, as a former steel weapons fighter, I have seen far worse injuries inflicted by 'safe' SCA weapons than I have ever seen in full contact steel weapons combat. I think that sometime people feel that because they have a 'safe' weapon in their hand they can bash people as hard as they like without the same regard to genuine safety that someone genuinely in combat (and I do not mean re-enactment combat here) has to have in order not to become a casualty. Hence the need for helmets with far more face protection than was often felt necessary by genuine fighters of the past.

Crispvs

That's a respectable and understandable view on the SCA. I'd disagree and say that:
-No one thinks that SCA weapons are safe, they will break fingers, elbows, knees and skulls.
-With the higher armor safety requirements people feel like they can bash each other without regard to unsafe nature of the rattan weapon.

I would agree though, that it is quite difficult (the true art of it I think) to be able to deliver a killing blow while maintaining your own personal safety in the middle of a battle. It definitely separates the fighters from the soldiers.

I much prefer wooden wasters to steel combat myself, though. I feel that you must practice the way you intend to fight, and if you hold back in your practice, you will never be able to give everything in your fight. Besides, practicing with wooden gladius is historically accurate! :lol:

This sort of practice has been widespread, Miyamoto Musashi taught that you must practice full force, with wooden swords, in order to be able to fight, and more importantly survive, a battle with steel.

[Dean Cunningham metalsmit]

The strike zones and static form of combat of the SCA is more akin to saber dueling of the 19th and 20th century than any real martial art that explores the real possibilities and danger of fighting in both The modern age, or of the past. Western martial arts is, in my opinion, the only system exploring reality at this point.

SCA rules exclude every option of exploration other than high medeival. And then there are even more restrictions applied on top of the armour requirements. Any system which excludes a target area is fundementaly flawed. The more exclusions the more flawed. Compare kajukenbo to other martial arts and you may begin to grasp my opinion.

[LVCIAN FIDELIS]

Dean,

We have obviously hijacked this thread and this conversation should probably be moved.

I would like for you to clarify your thoughts. Cause a fight, any fight, can be as static or as dynamic as its participants allow it to be.

The limited strike zones of SCA combat (anything Below the knee, and the hands) do two things:
1) They guarantee you will be able to do your job tomorrow, regardless of your recreation we are weekend warriors.
2) No School of "armed and armored" combat has ever taught its students to target below the knee in anything but the most dire of circumstances.

I hate to speak for everyone in the SCA, but Many of us tend to think of our combat as a sport. There are rules and training regimens and off seasons. Its not dissimilar to Boxing (in single combat) or football (in melee).

Sport or no, it is my opinion, SCA Combat is as close to a fighting with the intent of killing your opponent as you can get and be safe. This does mean that there are some parts of "reality" that suspended, but you can have real fighting with fake weapons or fake fighting with real weapons... both have their advantages.

Finally, Western Martial Arts is a very wide reaching term. Covering All of Europe, and every time frame from which a fighting manual survives. So I am assuming you are referring to I.33, Fiore, or anyone of the surviving German manuals. All of which are also being studied by members of the SCA. However, you can have a real fight at full speed and force with a fake weapon, or you can have a fake fight with a real steal weapon... both have their advantages.

Finally, many people dedicate a significant portion of their lives to achieving a level of prowess in their hobbies: Being a good fighter, an accurate recreationist, an appreciated painter, an excellent wood carver, ect. Who are we to pass judgments on how a free man passes his spare time.

Lucian

[Robert Vermaat]

Dean,
We have obviously hijacked this thread and this conversation should probably be moved.

As this whole thread is more about SCA rules than about reenactment, I moved the whole thread. Feel free to discuss on. :wink:

[Damian Farnworth]

You would have to put in a bar grill and keep the sides from moving to protect your head when you moved. Otherwise it is legal. Padding is essential, without padding the energy from a hit is transferred directly to your head and can easily lead to a concussion, especially when facing down someone like me and my pole-sword or my short spear. Also, it would have to be made out of at least 14g steel.

The Articulation poses the greatest threat to your safety though, also, with the face plate you run a higher risk of stifling due to a lack of circulation of air when you breathe.