Centurion helmet from Sisak, Croatia

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Sorry - can't post photographs again....Rado: I'll put it on my Wall in Face Book (that'll confuse all my other FB friends :wink:
EDIT: As I thought...someone has just asked me if it's my hat for Royal Ascot :roll: :mrgreen: )

[Doc]

That is true Moi except that the J is later than all those other helmets mentioned supposedly.

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That is true Moi except that the J is later than all those other helmets mentioned supposedly.

I think supposedly is the operative term. I need to track down the reference that moves this helmet to at least mid 1st Century, not late. I think it is something from the museum itself, although the helmet is from a different collection (Vienna I think) and not excavated in Caerleon.

[Doc]

From what I know, it is later than mid1st C AD. Mind you that the C is before the mid 1st C AD. It is part of the class of helmets that appear not to have earguards from the early 1st - 1st quarter of the century in discussion.

The Gallic H also appears to be later than mid 1st C AD from what I recall.

In the evolution of Gallic helmets going from the A-J, the neck guards all tend to vary in size not chronologically. The A has a large neck guard, so does the C. The the D, F, G, have small guards, followed by the H, I, J, that have larger guards again.

[Rado]

These days I got a lot of advice and guidance from friends about the centurio helmet from
Sisak, Croatia and now the evidence is for the Gallic F helmet..thanks to everyone for cooperation .



But here even the very book aftor (Ivan Radman) made bookmark оn the differences in neck protector-Extracts from the book:
Militaria Sisciensia, Musei Archaeologici Zagrabiensis Catalogi et Monographiae, vol. 1, Zagreb, 2005
By :Ivan Radman
“In the attempt to date the helmet of this type one should pay attention to the neck-guard,only not to its size to its angle with regard to the dome. This helmet does not contain some details characteristic for the later period, so it can securely be dated to 1-st century.”

[Rado]

Today I received this sketch-diagram which is very interesting Gallic F helmet different models!

Anyone have any idea why cheeks Protectors from (Sisak) are different from (Becancon)?

[Rado]

Here I made some collage of scientific drawings together with real objects. Can be noted ..big differences!
But this is normally every blacksmith (in antiquity) has put his creative vision on the product. Even if standards are imposed in the production of equipment in the Roman army .

[Rado]

Or..perhaps this collage with Gallic H model approaches closer to the original!?

[Vindex]

From what I know, it is later than mid1st C AD. Mind you that the C is before the mid 1st C AD. It is part of the class of helmets that appear not to have earguards from the early 1st - 1st quarter of the century in discussion.

Thank you!

The source is a museum guide written by Richard J Brewer which states it is early first century. The photograph is better than my poor attempts and you could, at a push, say it has ear guards I suppose. (Very small ones!)

[Tarbicus]

[quote="Rado" post=313490]Today I received this sketch-diagram which is very interesting Gallic F helmet different models!


I did those drawings something like six years ago. They were intended for use for production in India, and how it would be possible to make a couple of different helmets from one basic bowl by changing the cheekpieces and fittings. I based the angle of the neckguard on the Sisak find as illustrated in Militaria Sisciensia. Robinson labelled the Sisak example as a Gallic F.

Here's the original discussion on RAT.

The Nijemegen and Sisak examples had angled neckguards, while the Besancon version was flat. If I recall correctly, the final Deepeeka version was based on Christophe of Armae's drawings of the Besancon helm.

[Rado]

Thank you for the clarification Tarbicus! Very detailed and reasonable investigation you have done in this topic guys!

[Rado]

Tarbicus I have a question please!
I would like to ask you for a advice!
I will order (as a personal request ) from Gagan- Deepeeka to make for me that Centurio helmet from Sisak.
Should I to guidelines from your drawings regarding the type of cheeks protectors?
Also additional corrections related to differences in model?

[Rado]

Isn’t it an interesting solution that was taken from the ancient master blacksmith: To installed an holder for the crest holders from Italic helmet model on the Gallic helmet F model !? Drawing is from the Book “Greenhill - Greece and Rome At War”

[Rado]

My thoughts and observations of this unique model ( centurio helmet from Sisak) still remainsIThe crest holders (which is mounted on it) is very similar to the Italic B model .But rotated back to the other side of Italic B ! And it is not concave inside!

[Rado]

I see that Аrmae already have an progress in this direction (Crest holder from Italic helmet over on Gallic F)! This must be the crest holder like for centurion Galic F Sisak .