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Linothorax again
#31
Dan while were on the subject, did you see "Battlefield detectives, the battle of Agincourt" They did a bit on bodkin arrows and long bows coming up with the results that the arrow would have had 63 joules of energy and that they would not have penetrated the French armour of the day. They summized that the amount of English archers had more to do with there cost than there effectivness.
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#32
No I didn't see the show but I think Williams summarises the test in his book, The Knight and the Blast Furnace. This book is a must have if you are interested in this field of study. He also has a table listing the amount of energy needed to penetrate varous layers of linen (p.943).

100 J - 5th layer
120 J - 9th layer
140 J - 16th layer
160 J - 23rd layer
180 J - 26th layer

Since one is unlikely to get much more than 60 or 70 J from a longbow it seems unlikely that linen armour would have much of a problem against any bow.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#33
Matt Used a modern hide glue called elmer i think Connolly dosnt say, Yes hide and protien glues can be made waterproof by the addition of lime but this is something that appears to have been unknown in the 5th Cent BC, I looked for days to find a reference but could only come up with indirect evidence that they did not know how to make glue waterproof; no glue used in ship construction, bows having to be dried to work proplery, leather covers for shields

Dan i really tried to find glue for the linothorax but none of the evidence that i could find from the time would suggest that they were.
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#34
Apparently Elmer is casein glue. Try adding some lime to it and try again. It should be a simple matter for you to rule out glued linen if you have two reconstrctions and can show that the quilted one offers better protection.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#35
There is a fragment of layered linen found at one of the Mykenaian digs. Have you managed to find any info about this?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#36
Just Googled The Knight and the Blast Furnace looks like the culmination of a lifes work, where can i get one for less than $400 (i think my wife would freak out)
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#37
Yes 2 references. it was apparently found in shaft grave 4 or 5 at Myceane Snodgrass refers to it as a possible greave, but as far as its current location or any published article i drew a total blank.

As far as the testing is going i have the ballistics gel in the fridge and am currently making more armour samples yes i will be using glued linen, leather, steel plate, bronze plate, bronze scale, and iron scale (if i can find some) and sewn linen for comparison. I am also casting bronze Persian and Greek replica arrowheads and sourcing phragmites reeds for arrow shaft (its a weed every where in the world except Western Australia (of course) it is only in one spot in a state of this size)
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#38
Thanks gendlemen,
I learned a lot from your postings.
After seeing the posting that Jason had to prees a bow with his feet to get the "punch" he needed, I think that it was the same way that Karduchians did their opponents life difficult.
After seen Dan's post on the layered Mycenean fragment I start suspect the charioteers depicted unarmored were not unarmored at all!
Cant wait to find out the results that Jason is going to get.
Kind regards
Stefanos
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#39
Thanks gendlemen,
I learned a lot from your postings.
After seeing the posting that Jason had to prees a bow with his feet to get the "punch" he needed, I think that it was the same way that Karduchians did their opponents life difficult.
After seen Dan's post on the layered Mycenean fragment I start suspect the charioteers depicted unarmored were not unarmored at all!
Can't wait to find out the results that Jason is going to get.
Kind regards
Stefanos
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#40
Jason,

You really need to get a copy of Thomas Hulit's PhD thesis on Near Eastern Bronze Age scale armour. He pulls together a lot of the sources and makes some reconstructions of bronze scale armour and shot arrows at it. He also personally examined (on two separate occasions) the leather scale armour found by Carter in Tut's tomb. The PhD should be locted at Durham University. Apparently it includes a CD with some video footage of him shooting the armour with arrows at the Royal Armouries.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#41
Dan I emailed his last known email address and one of his lectuerers told me he would pass on my request but thats the last i heard about 6 months ago
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#42
Jason Hoffman\\n[quote]The types of bows and arrows i used were a 140 lb longbow and a modern hunting arrow (65 grams) with a steel trilobate head (tradename Bodkin), drawing the bow proved so hard that i ended up sitting on the ground holding the bow with my feet and drawing the string with both hands the linen stopped this easily from about 4 meters (16 feet). I then used a modern compound 60 lbs bow with the same arrow and a modern razor blade hunting head, 24 layers was no match for this and the arrow punched straight through. Interestingly though we doubled the linen over and 48 layers stopped this arrow from the same distance as mentioned above.

I like your style! Big Grin . Would you be willing to carry out similar experiments at the Ancient Greek Festival in London, next Summer?
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#43
Jason, how do you correlate your arrow tests to the sort of poundage of bow & arrow speeds generated by ancient bows ?
I am also fascinated by the subject of weapon penetration on typical armours of various periods & have yet to see any really accurate ways of proving this.

The Battlefield Detectives Program was interesting as it kind of debunked (once again) the myth of the longbow.
Penetrative testing done on rigidly mounted flat plate still failed to penetrate a 2mm piece of mild steel, even though this really favours the missile.
I have seen a penetrative test on a program (cant remember if it was this one) against a hardened & tempered breastplate made by Master Emry's & the arrow fired at it only just penetrated - knowhere near enough to cause a wound IMO.
They also came to the conclusion that the mud stuck fast to the smooth polished armour of the knights & stopped them getting up so easily when fallen.

All these tests show is that the average arrow against the normal armour of the period probably wont cause a serious wound if any.
It would be really nice to show that this also went back into antiquity as common sense would imply ie the old don't wear anything that isn't keeping you alive rule.

I would also really like to see the result of the loose vs glued hard thorax test. This could also pose the question of where all the layers glued ? Could the inner layers be left unglued to provide absorbtion ?

Keep up the good work !

Adam
Adam Rudling
The Vicus - recreating life in 1st Century Britain
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#44
I am also fascinated by the subject of weapon penetration on typical armours of various periods & have yet to see any really accurate ways of proving this.

So you'll be coming to my show, next year, then, Adam. ( See "Suppose they held a war and nobody came"

I would also really like to see the result of the loose vs glued hard thorax test. This could also pose the question of where all the layers glued ? Could the inner layers be left unglued to provide absorbtion ?

Come and do it yourself.

Paul Allen





















Keep up the good work !

Adam[/quote]
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#45
Maybe - still busy with Vicus stuff though Paul - this reminds me that I have to make an effort to sort out making some more muscled cuirass's & that Argive that you asked me about last year.
Adam Rudling
The Vicus - recreating life in 1st Century Britain
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