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Linothorax again
#46
I was discussing quilted linen armor with a friend of mine whose hobby is making linen quilts. She found the idea fascinating and put some thought into how she would make a quilt that was to be used for armor.

Based on her experiences working with linen she said the resistance of a quilted linothorax to penatration would be greatly increased if the angle the layers were cut at was rotated for each layer. That is if the first layer were cut parallel with the weave, the second layer bias cut (45 degrees to the weave), the third layer cut 90 degrees to the weave, then another bias cut layer, then another parallel layer, and so on. This, she said, would make for an extremely strong quilt.

It would also require more linen to make, but then you would not need as many layers to achieve the same degree of protection.
Dan Zeidler
Legio XX
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#47
Thank you!

That is a very interesting idea, and one I have never heard before. A test of rotated-layers vs. normally aligned layers could be very interesting.
Felix Wang
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#48
Dan´s friend has a very strong argument. And his post prompted me to try and check and if possible verify the idea.
An aunt of my wife worked in a factrory of ex-Soviet Union making staff for the once mighty red army. She told us (my wife kindly translated) that if they wanted to create extra strong material for various functions they used layers of material at 45 degree angles not only in linen but in camvas (hessian) too.
The lady also claimed that angling layers aid waterproofing.
Well I am not a clothing expert so can't strongly support all that but I think they knew what they were doing these days.
Kind regards
Stefanos
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#49
Yes, this would definitely increase strength. I already suggested alternating layers by 90 degrees because the weft and warp are of different strengths. 45 degrees would be better but, as has already been said, would waste a lot more material. I have also suggested doing the same thing with leather since the grain tends to run in a particular direction.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#50
Having followed this thread on quilted defenses I tried a quick one day experiment. I did this recalling a reference by Bernal Diaz in his Conquest of New Spain where he cited the construction of quilted cotton armor soaked in brine. I used thin materials to see if results could be achieved with a quick, minimal effort. I made three samples approximately 15cm. square consisting of :
1. A single square of unbleached muslin cotton of a medium (porous) weave.
2. A layered square of four pieces of the same muslin set at a 45 degree angle to the weave as suggested by Dan Z, Hoplite14gr, and Dan Howard.
3. A thin (2.5mm) compressed un-woven cotton wadding like material from a storage blanket sandwiched between muslin layers (two each) set at a 45 degree angle.
4. As a control element, I also tested a square of vegetable tanned leather.
All three fabric samples were soaked in brine more saline than sea water. This was sea salt un-scientifically dumped in a pan of water until it was not easily dissolved. All three were let dry. The single layer was slightly stiffer than the untreated muslin to the touch, but not enough to limit flexibility. The fabric had a slight sparkle to it in sunlight where salt had re-crystallized in the pores. The soaking left the other two with a slight adhesiveness that would have facilitated the quilting process. All were quite flexible. I then set the two multi-layered pieces on a layer of fresh cut lawn that covers a sandy surface. I then made a moderate thrust on both pieces with a Hoplite type spear with a moderately sharp point. The four layer muslin piece gave no lateral resistance to the blow but did not cut through. The layered and compressed cotton piece gave no lateral resistance and was pierced by the spear point. The leather control piece was pierced easily. The experiment also had the unanticipated result of having my new neighbor whom I did not at first observe to be in her abutting backyard, quickly remove herself and her small child and go inside her house. I then placed each piece on a firm surface, the kitchen counter. I then made several slashing cuts with various swords daggers and kitchen knives. All samples resisted the cuts more so than an untreated fabric or the control leather piece.

Initial conclusion: Fabric treated by immersion in brine has a more defensive quality for slashing type cuts than one that is not treated without loosing flexibility. This exceeds the defensive quality of the leather control piece. To my surprise, the sample consisting of four muslin layers seemed to be the most resistant. I estimate that four to six layers would be suitable for the mid-upper leg to knee length, flexible, petruges that seen in sources such as the Alexander mosaic and on Roman representations through the third century. This would also be suitable for an arming doublet type garment. Any such construction would weigh less than a similar one of leather. I refer you back to Jason Hoffman previous posts on his tests. This so far, begs the question of water proofing.

I then coated each multiplayer sample with Elmer’s glue on both sides, for some waterproofing quality and subjected them to the spear thrusts and slashing tests as before. The sample consisting of the four muslin layers, now stiffer than before, was pierced by the spear point, a decline in defensive quality. The layered and compressed cotton piece did catch the spear point more than previously, and although allowing some penetration, was an improvement in the defensive quality. The four layered piece resisted slashing in the same level as previous, with no improvement in defensive quality. The layered and compressed cotton sample was now stiff enough to allow a blade to catch and was damaged by a cutting stoke, a decline in defensive quality.

Secondary conclusion: The qualities of each sample have defensive or practical use flaws. The main quality of a quilted defense is the flexibility that is lost when multiple layers of linen are held by saturation of glue, as described for the conventional linothorax. However when multiple layers of linen strengthen by brine immersion, are allowed to slide over each other in a limited manner the ability to resist a slash or direct thrust is improved, although the shock force of the blow is not diminished. (The ability for fabric layers to slide over each other is a feature of Kevlar body armor.) If quilting stitches are spaced somewhere around 12 to 14 cm. this sliding layer quality is preserved while retaining garment form. Petruges, which seem to be somewhere around 4 to 10 cm wide, would seem to hinder a cut more so that a plain fabric strip, while maintaining the appearance of ancient representations.

I would suggest the following tentative hypothesis for further testing and discussion. First, it seems any garment of moderate weave soaked in a brine solution of something similar to slightly evaporated sea water would have some improved tensile strength. Thus, the deliberate reference to brine soaking by Diaz. This quality would be lost on becoming wet. However, this quality may be retained as a result of regular washing in slightly distilled sea water. The may even extend (inadvertently?) to the tunic, if constructed of multiple angled fabric layers. Second, I can tentatively suggest the construction of a body defense that is constructed of multiple linen components. This would be an inner core of perhaps four to six layers of lightweight brine soaked muslin, encased in a possibly heavier (canvas) inner and outer layer that is coated in a water proofing glue. Each layer should be allowed to dry separately, and then quilt stitched. As noted, the glue covered sample over cotton wadding caught the spear point better that the glued muslin layers did, but did not stop cuts as well as the brine soaked sample. I believe this to be so because the layers slid over each other. In this construction the defensive properties of both are hopefully retained. Such a defense would be suitable for light troops who need to retain flexibility of a defense over heavy protective qualities. This defense could perhaps stop a slash and a moderate direct thrust, but would not lessen the shock or impact much. It can also be painted all over with whatever you feel like.

Whether there is any advantage to adding or using cotton wadding is unclear to me at this point. The sample I made using wadding was thin, and I would estimate the thickness to exceed 8 to 10 mm before becoming effective. That wool and felt have been used in padded garments is recognized.

The effort described above was done quickly and with materials at hand and really proves nothing except perhaps some directions to experiment with. The use of thin and light materials was to see at which point, if any, an adequate defense could be obtained. The muslin I used can be obtained for free by removing the liner of your mother-in-law drapes when she is not home.

Gaius Decius Aquilius
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#51
Well "I learn as I grow older".
Your efforts make made me think that loose order ancient infnatry was not necessarily "light" infantry. Troops apearing to fight with just their chitons are not so unprotected as we might think!
Brine technique would be more available to coastal or island troops.
Cotton could be available to Kyrenean or Seleucidic or Greco-bactrian troops.
I do not know when coton made it to Europe.
Its logical that if you can survive with "light armor" the arrows and javelins which seems very likely as I understood from the members experiments, you can close with the "nasties" and skewer them!
Keep in mind that most blows and aiming in battle is erratic so this armor might be what you need!
You idea of combined types "fabric armor" is certainly interesting.
Kind regards
Stefanos
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#52
Gaius Decius Aquilius\\n[quote]Having followed this thread on quilted defenses I tried a quick one day experiment. I did this recalling a reference by Bernal Diaz in his Conquest of New Spain where he cited the construction of quilted cotton armor soaked in brine. I used thin materials to see if results could be achieved with a quick, minimal effort. I made three samples approximately 15cm. square consisting of :
1. A single square of unbleached muslin cotton of a medium (porous) weave.
2. A layered square of four pieces of the same muslin set at a 45 degree angle to the weave as suggested by Dan Z, Hoplite14gr, and Dan Howard.
3. A thin (2.5mm) compressed un-woven cotton wadding like material from a storage blanket sandwiched between muslin layers (two each) set at a 45 degree angle.
4. As a control element, I also tested a square of vegetable tanned leather.

Damn' fine work!

The experiment also had the unanticipated result of having my new neighbor whom I did not at first observe to be in her abutting backyard, quickly remove herself and her small child and go inside her house.

My morning exercise with my Norman sword had the same effect on the man delivering oil to my neighbour's house. He worked very quickly and quietly!

I suspect that the Greeks used both quilted and glued armours, perhaps in conjunction. I find that my linothorax makes me sweat a lot. I put this down to the leather centre, which doesn't breathe (and to my own proclivity to profuse perspiration!).
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#53
I've considered Jason's evidence and Gaius's experiment and am leaning heavily towards the argument that they didn't use glue at all. Is there any primary evidence at all suggesting the use of glue in this construction?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#54
Hi all still here been doing university assignments, US history and education units.

To answer Dans question, none that i have found, the evidence of glue itself is very limited.

I have another little thing to through into the mix. when we talk about linen i think we should be thinking about something similar to 18th century sail cloth, not the 'linen' you buy at fabric shops. My investigations reveal that most fabric shop linen is made from 'tow' not the long strong strands 'line' which gets used in fine linen such as very expensive table cloths. Which should make any quilting cross bias or not much stronger.

This is an interesting development as all my other experiments have been done with cheap linen!

Yes id love to do my experiments in London next year but I live in Perth, Western Australia.

PS. currently making a balista so i can shoot arrows at different poundages and speeds, so as to determine maximum speed of ancient arrows.

Jason
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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#55
The only thing that still indicates gluing to me is the way the shoulder flaps stick straight up when unfastened, in the vase paintings. They have to be stiff and fairly springy. Obviously not all glues are going to do that! But if other stiffening treatments like soaking in brine will yield that result, the arguments for glue lose a lot of weight.

And then I'll have to make a whole new linothorax...

Khairete,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#56
Quote:Yes id love to do my experiments in London next year but I live in Perth, Western Australia.
Jason

Yes, I realised that, but, since we get Australians over for the major Hastings shows (and there's one next year) I thought it worth while issuing the invitation. I'm sorry you can't make it. Couldn't get a research grant to come and compare notes with other ballistics students over here, could you? :wink:
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#57
Quote:The only thing that still indicates gluing to me is the way the shoulder flaps stick straight up when unfastened, in the vase paintings. They have to be stiff and fairly springy. Obviously not all glues are going to do that! But if other stiffening treatments like soaking in brine will yield that result, the arguments for glue lose a lot of weight.


Khairete,

Matthew

The art seems to indicate that the material is stiff, throughout, and shows a smooth surface. the Greeks are good at giving indications of difering textures in their art and would, I think, be able to show the rather scruffy look layered but unglued linen has. Similarly, the armours end at the waist, rather than the hips, or thighs; a quilted or unglued garment would be flexible enough to allow bending without this. There would then be no need for pteryges.

The glue does fill the interstices in the weave, which may be another reason why my armour doesn't breathe.

I think I'll make the Linothorakes for the Roman Cavalry Sports group from padding sandwiched between layers of linen, in the style of modern back protectors, as Marcus Junkelmann seems to have done, and see what happens.
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#58
Why do you think that unglued linen would look "scruffy"? What is so difficult with using a fine cloth cover? It was very common to do this in the middle ages. A linothorax made of, say, 20 layers would be too stiff to extend down to the hips. It would end at the waist like other semi-rigid armours.

Don't use padding. Just layer 16-20 sheets of linen and quilt them together. If you can rotate the weave in each layer, all the better. As Jason said, best not to use "tow" linen. Use real linen, similar to 18th century sailcloth. If you use this you might get good results with as few as three or four layers.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#59
Quote:Why do you think that unglued linen would look "scruffy"? What is so difficult with using a fine cloth cover?

1.The fact that the photos I've seen of Marcus' work show armour that looks as if it's been slept in.
2. I suspect Marcus did so, but the creases showed through.

I'm more concerned to produce something that will be very practical for horse-riders than I am in making a set of armours to prove a theory about how armour must have been made.
I'm not aware of any evidence for quilting in these armours ( Classical Greek Linothorakes, C1AD Roman cavalry sports armour); are you?
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#60
There is no evidence for glue either. Quilted layered linen was used in other armour constructions such as the leather scale found in Tut's tomb.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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