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I can't believe I haven't come across this until now! It is a fabulous, fascinating and intriguing window on an important battle.
Thank you VERY much for the links and videos and starting the thread.
Moi Watson
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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Quote:I can't believe I haven't come across this until now! It is a fabulous, fascinating and intriguing window on an important battle.
Thank you VERY much for the links and videos and starting the thread.
The rams were covered in an article in Minerva, NOV-DEC edition.
This is really great stuff!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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Thanks Byron
Again, I'll ask at work to see if anyone subscibes and has a copy. Can't subscribe to ALL the magazines, sadly, and Ancient Warfare has priority!!
Moi Watson
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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Fascinating indeed. Thanks, Ruben!
Ben Kane, bestselling author of the Eagles of Rome, Spartacus and Hannibal novels.
Eagles in the Storm released in UK on March 23, 2017.
Aguilas en la tormenta saldra en 2017.
www.benkane.net
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Darn, I was at AIA too and missed that one. Sorry not to meet up as well. I started sitting close to the screen to take photos from the iPhone, though not sure they'd entirely like me posting those.
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
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These are GREAT finds !!! Any light on further excavation of the find spot of these rams ? ie, if there are remains of the ships they were attached to ?
M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.
Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!
H.J.Vrielink.
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Quote:That's interesting. If the rams were that exposed and close to land, I would have expected divers or fishermen to haul them the few hundred yards to the beach and sell them as scrap bronze within the last 2200 years. They must have snagged a few anchors and nets in that period ...
The first and last rams to be found were both illegally raised, so people were clearly at least aware of finding some rams in this area. Royal mentioned that a few objects were found far outside the dense find spot where the other rams and helmets were found, and that they were likely dragged there by fishermen.
Quote:These are GREAT finds !!! Any light on further excavation of the find spot of these rams ? ie, if there are remains of the ships they were attached to ?
M.VIB.M.
The area will continue to be surveyed and excavated into the future, but the wooden remains of the ships are probably long gone. All these objects were found on the surface, and Royal stated that they found many iron nails which would have secured the timbers of the ships inside or near the rams along with the helmets because octopuses, which have an affinity for living in small confined refuges like the hollows of these rams, apparently collect them.
One thing to consider is to whom these helmets belonged. If we follow the description of Polybius, then the marine contingent of the Punic ships was comprised of newly-levied men (1.61). I can't say I'm familiar at all with Carthaginian naval warfare, so can anyone testify to whether these would be citizen troops or mercenaries? I presume the former, as it is explicitly stated that the ships were going to pick up much-needed mercenary troops to fight as marines when they were attacked. Regardless, it seems very likely that these helmets are Punic, given that Polybius only mentions Carthaginian losses in this battle (50 ships were lost, so finding the rams of seven already is pretty impressive!).
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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Absolutely fascinating finds, I am glued to the screen. Wish Lionel Casson could have seen and commented on this.
So, are the archaeologists now certain that this is the site indeed where the 241 BC sea battle between Rome and Carthage took place and that the items recovered stem from this battle and not some other - perhaps not even recorded - naval engagement ?
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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Clearly, somebody was really turning out the Montefortinos during those years. I think it's strange that a single design swept the western Mediterranean world in so short a time, seemingly to the exclusion of other designs. Is it just cheapness and simplicity of manufacture?
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Brilliant find. To think that perhaps many more of these sites are still, undiscovered, on the seabed. The Med is a big place...
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Quote:Brilliant find. To think that perhaps many more of these sites are still, undiscovered, on the seabed. The Med is a big place...
I would say that historically speaking there were more naval battles in the Med than in all other waters combined, at least until the 1500s. And the Med is on average much more shallow than most of the other battle grounds...
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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And considering how battles seem to have been fought repeatedly in the same narrow waters, you'll probably find wreckage in successive layers: WWII wreckage on top of Napoleonic on top of Hospitaler/Turkish on top of Punic and so forth.
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Well. The sea is a fickle mistress, you could have a dozen ships sink at the same spot on the
Surface, and come to rest in 12 different spots on the seabed.
Then there are currents to take into account, seabed drift etc
Stuff can be scattered all over just due to the natural effects,
Covered for years and then exposed again, to be discovered of shifted and covered again in time!
Nature of the beast! 
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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It is great to see that the inscriptions now firmly set these rams in the republic era of the Punic wars and not in for instance the battles fought by Sextus Pompeius against Agrippa.
However it of course would still be great if remains of ships of that specific era were found one day
M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.
Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!
H.J.Vrielink.
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