lamellar armour

[korras]

Hi,
I'm trying to understand the way etruscan lamellar armour like that of Mars of Todi bronze was build www.flickr.com/photos/hesperetusa/4910637170/

the bronze actually is umbrian but there are other smaller etruscan bronze with the same kind of armour


this kind of armour would probably be derived from eastern types, even if I don't know greek depiction of similar ones

someone has idea of the lacing/holes pattern?

thanks to everyone that can add something

Corrado

[hoplite14gr]

Not necessarily eastern type.
Bronze plaques thought by many to be lamellae exist as exhibits from the Bronze Age in various Museums. And it is known now that the Etruscans emigrated to Italy from Asia Minor.

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The Mars of Todi armour was not meant to represent bronze scale or lamellar armour. It is hardly unique in etruscan art and literally all depictions that have colour show the scales in white colour, while the bronze of the helmets greaves and even some fittings on the cuirasses themselves are bright yellow.
This was probably leather armour, made from the same white material that the greek tube and yoke was made of.
It also seems that some of the greek depictions of tube and yokes show this scaling or lamellar of leather and not bronze, like the statue of Heracles in the Aphaea temple pediment.
Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

Painted leather?

Well reconstructed artifacts after phasmtoscopic analysis show painted armor like
amaranth helmets:
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/...edhelm.jpg

That coroborates with pottery depicting painted armor.

Xenophon talks frequently of shine polished armor.

Conclusion: paint and metallic looks simply coexisted.

Can same body prove beyond reasonable doubt that the armors of "Todi Marsh" is non metallic?

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Lets both present the evidence, and lets leave Corrado decide what he believes is most probable. We indeed play with probabilities here, but still, some evidence can be more convincing than something else.
Khaire
Giannis

[Dan Howard]

Agree with Stefanos. It is impossible tell whether a sculpture is depicting metal or leather. Scale armour made from both leather and metal has coexisted since the Bronze Age. The Etruscan armour is probably scale, not lamellar. The plates were laced to a backing like Assyrian armour and lots of others.

[richard robinson]

Dan, some lammelar is thought also to be laced to a backing.
regards
richard

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The etruscan armour is most probably scales (regardless of material) stitched together, not necessarily on a leather or other backing.
As i said, however, there is good indication that this armour was NOT metal, and as i also said, this indication does not come from the Mars of Todi itself. There are at least three colourful depictions of this type of armour where helmets greaves and shields are painted bright yellow and the armour itseld is plain white, with red and black decoration and bronze(yellow) fittings. Next to one of these paintings there is a common "greek style" tube and yoke, with no scales and painted with the exact same white colours.
These are the only three coloured depictions of this armour and they are all white, while there is no say, yellow one.
It is worth noting that leather scale armour in alongated pieces stitched together exists in skythian context. Then again, there are also elongated bronze scales in skythian context, but they are not stitched together, they are linked with bronze wire, a connection that looks totally different to the etruscan art.
Khaire
Giannis

EDIT: by the way, i cave reconstructed a small piece of how i believe the mars of todi armour was made with leather scales stitched together, and it works beautifully. No backing is needed.
Although this is no proof of what the etruscans were doing, it shows at least that it can be workable armour.

[Redguru]

I'm curious, was polished iron ever depicted in classical art using white paint?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Iron is conventionally painted either grey or blue. I have seen white reflection in the most elaborate paintings, like the Alexander mosaic, but this is far too sophisticated art, whereas classical and archaic art uses simpler colouring. Also, in the above mentioned paintings irons is also depicted, for example they are holding swords and the blades are grey-blueish
Khaire
Giannis

[john m roberts]

Giannis,
Could you post a photo of the laced-scale fragment you built? I am curious about the lacing arrangement.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hi Robert.
Here's the quick try i did. To look more like the mars of todi and other sculptures i would have to use thicker laces, perhaps leather? I should also pass a lace going between the "spirals" which would result in even "fuller" apearence and even more like the artwork.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118/...C04318.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118/...C04317.jpg
Khaire
Giannis

[Dan Howard]

Dan, some lammelar is thought also to be laced to a backing.
regards
richard

Agreed. It depends on whether the backing is required to hold the structure together. If it is, then it is scale. If the lacing can do the job by itself, then it is lamellar.