A \'new\' look at the linothorax

[Dan Howard]

The first arrow or spear that hits that fantasy costume will be directed into one of the gaps between the bumps.

Are there any other illustrations that look at all like the above seal? It might help pin down some details.

What is Achilles wearing over his groin in Stefanos' pic? I think the armour is just a regular T&Y with scale reinforcing around the midsection.

[hoplite14gr]

To honest Dan I am uncertain ob the groin armor.

I stand by interpretation that these are the pteryges of a leather subarmalis (spolas).

I am also puzzled about what type of armor the whole thing is.

Some times I wonder if the artist technique or his mastery of it prevents him from depicting what he intents to.

Kind regards

[Gulan]

Okay, I should have probably explained myself better...or at all.

The 'fantasy armor' is not reconstruction but movie prop.

I was thinking about vertical lines being some kind of vertical reinforcement on regular TY,attached like bumps in the picture(not that ih looked exactly like it)..Not quilted..

But to make things clearer I will reconstruct what I mean>

[richard robinson]

Mind you
It is a handsome movie prop armour and not too far removed from the famous crodile skin armour :twisted:
regards
richard

[Gulan]

Never mind the first two pictures I posted...The last one is what I intended to show.

[Magnus]

Ahhh...gotcha.

[Duncan Head]

So I was going through the Beazely gem archive today...

It isn't the smoking gun. But this is the first artistic depiction I've seen that could, without doubt, illustrate a quilted linen armour. It is an Ionian hoplite, according to art historians, from 500BCE

What art historians think it's Ionian? The gem's part of Boardman's "Classical Phoenician Scarab Corpus", which he believes were all made in homeland Phoenicia, though others have suggested a Punic provenance for at least some of them. It was found in Tharros, a Phoenician settlement in Sardinia (http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/gems/scarab/scarab28.htm). So while the figure is armed at least partly in Greek style, I don't think it is at all safe to assume that he is an accurate depiction of an Ionian - or even that he was ever intended to show an Ionian. And look at that shield - why should we think the armour to be any more realistic than the shield is?

(On the other hand, we do know that both Phoenicians and Carthaginians used linen armour...)

cheers,
Duncan

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

We also know that greeks used shields with three dimentional devices. The Saturus face is one of the commonest of the 3D devices in attic pottery, and we have concrete archeological evidence that they were used in 5th and 4th century macedonian hoplite shields. Some of them were made from a mix of linen and painted and guilded stucco, and one was a riveted wooden sculpture on the face of a shield.
The Olympia bronze emblems are also three dimentional to various degrees, but it is certain that they were not the only ones.
Finally, even the shield from the Vergina tomb II can be safely considered a shield with a three dimentional device...
Khaire
Giannis

[Duncan Head]

..., and one was a riveted wooden sculpture on the face of a shield.

Really? I don't think I'd heard of that one - have you got a reference?

[Dan Howard]

A seal can't be used as evidence for 3D anything. It is a seal. It won't work unless all of the detail is raised.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

..., and one was a riveted wooden sculpture on the face of a shield.

Really? I don't think I'd heard of that one - have you got a reference?

"Hoplon, The Argolic Shield and its Technology" by Vasiliki Stamatopoulou. I have posted the abstract a couple of time before and i have gotten gold of the (unpublished) two volume book in the university library for three hours, before the prof that had borrowed it took it back. In that time i read about the shields of Macedonia, and one sculpted wooden emblem was identified, that was riveted on the shield. The shape of the device was unrecognisable. On the surface of another shield there was a couple of marble and glass eyes found, suggesting there used to be a face sculpture on the shield. The eyes were not flat but deep like in typical sculptures. Further ivory pieces were suggested to have consisted the hair of a female face, perhaps a medusa.
Khaire
Giannis

[Graham Sumner]

Hi

I am not sure if anyone has posted this but a search did not reveal the name.

The TV programme 'Museum Secrets' on the National Archaeological Museum of Athens showed a reconstruction of a linothorax by Scott Bartell and Professor Greg Aldrete from the Univerity of Wisconsin and a demonstration where it was shot at with bronze tipped arrows including when it was even worn by Bartell.

They have a website www.uwgb.edu/aldreteg/linothorax.html

and I am sure interested parties here would like to contact Professor Aldrete about the results of the tests at [email protected]

Graham.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Saw this show again last night Graham. I was impressed with hisconfidence in wearing it.
However, they did not actually show the shot, just the bow being pulled at an insanely close distance, then cut to the arrow stuck in the lino..... :whistle:

But it ws a good show, flaws excluded!

[Graham Sumner]

I was just wondering how many H&S forms had to be filled in before doing that !! :eek:

Plus there was no disclaimer saying "do not try this at home!" :errr:

Graham

[Alexand96]

I'm sorry, but I cannot help feeling that everyone depicted in (at least the youtube segment) the video knows much less about the practicalities of a real linothorax as armor than many of the members of this board.

Anyway, they're using supposed "ancient glue methods" in their construction. I thought the current consensus is that there is no convincing proof that the ancient Greeks had any such glues as we understand them, and therefore likely used either layered/quilted linens or tawed leather? Please correct if I am wrong. :?