Legate/Higher Officer Helmet?

[Doc]

I know that we cannot conclusively relegate rank to actual equipment all the time and AFAIK, there aren't any actual helmet finds that look like those mostly used by reenactors for high ranking officials like a legate.

Obviously, reenactors base their helmets on sculptures when it comes to these higher ranks. Could someone provide a few sculptures either pictures or the name of the actual sculpture that may have helmets that could be attributed to these higher ranking personel.

Thanks

[Alexand96]

Hey Doc,

Have a look at the statue I brought up in this post here: http://romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?func=v...&id=302826

As you may read in the post, I have not been able to find much detailed information about the statue, but it is very well known, and as far as I can tell, EVERY single depiction that I have seen where an artist has recreated an accurate representation of what an officer or legate looked like during the Republic is based off of this statue, the officer depicted on the Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus, or the equestrian statue of Marcus Nonius Balbus found in Herculaneum. Despite the difficulty with finding images of the Rhodes statue clear enough to use for a reproduction, at least the detail is clearly there, whereas with the officer on the Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus little detail can be gleamed, particularly with respect to the helmet. The equestrian statue of Balbus is depicted sans helmet, as seen here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bstorage/5601996381/

I have seen no other accurate depiction of what we can be certain is an officer, tribune, legate, or even emperor wearing or carrying a helmet. If anyone knows of any, I of course would be extremely interested as well.

Hope that helps.

[Doc]

Hello Alexander,

Thank you very much for the links. I really appreciate it.

I thought it would not be a grand buffet of photos.

[Doc]

I wish there were better photos of the helmet. At least we can make out that the crest was of hair not feathers.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Paolo, I would be very, very careful in using relief or statue as base for a replica. What you see mostly represented is hellenistic style. Often even in small detail. So you could make a big effort only to find out later that the helmet is very anachronistic. I´d rather go for contemporary finds, and make them with silver and fire-gilding. If you need a source for fire-gilding, write me.

[Alexand96]

Paolo, I would be very, very careful in using relief or statue as base for a replica. What you see mostly represented is hellenistic style.

I believe the Roman officer class was trying to pose as Hellenistic. One of the only two helmets that have been found that are believed to be those of Roman officers are the Autun helmet (http://cache.virtualtourist.com/4/425138..._Autun.jpg), and one other that I can't find a picture of online, that was in Connolly's Greece and Rome at War (I'll try to find the page/reference later). Both appear to be Hellenized copies of Italo-Corinthian style helmets, similar to those often depicted in Roman art/statuary.

[caiusbeerquitius]

I believe the Roman officer class was trying to pose as Hellenistic.

As such your statement may be correct, it would fit very well with what J.E. Lendon writes in Soldiers and Ghosts. But a helmet replica for the imperial period can not be based on a find. So IMO a continuity of use of hellenistic helmet types first should be proven, if one would want to use one.

One of the only two helmets that have been found that are believed to be those of Roman officers are the Autun helmet

The Autun helmet was the decoration of a statue, though, apparently it was found in a Temple district. This would make your argument circular.

one other that I can't find a picture of online, that was in Connolly's Greece and Rome at War

Aren't the helmets P. Connolly shows hellenistic helmets from an earlier context, and aren´t they shown with a republican tribune, i.e. contemporary to the time the helmets were worn? I have my copy in the office, but that´s what I remember... Might be wrong, though..

[Alexand96]

The Autun helmet was the decoration of a statue, though, apparently it was found in a Temple district.

I didn't know that. Haven't read much about the Autun helmet besides what's been written recently on RAT, and probably glazed over that fact if it was mentioned. Apologies.

But a helmet replica for the imperial period can not be based on a find.

You mean with regards to the helmet as displayed on the Rhodes Panoply? Yes, I would definitely agree that this is purely a Republican-era depiction, and could not be used for an Imperial legate/officer impression. Perhaps I misunderstand you, though.

Aren't the helmets P. Connolly shows hellenistic helmets from an earlier context, and aren´t they shown with a republican tribune, i.e. contemporary to the time the helmets were worn?

If memory serves correct, I believe Connolly's description states something very short like "Simple Hellenistic type of helmet as worn by officers of the late Republic." I'll have to pull it out later when I get home, but it would seem as though your assessment is correct. I would love to find more information about that helmet (i.e. context).

However, aren't we talking about helmets for officers in any period? AFAIK there is a real dearth of evidence for any equipment used by the higher ranks during any Roman period. These are simply some of the references I've seen put forth for the period that most interests me (Republic, early Imperial period).

[PhilusEstilius]

In the H.R.Robinson book on page 147 we have a picture of an officer of the Praetorian Guard on a relief in the Louvre museum, then on page 151 we have a statue of Drusus in the Cagliari museum but then there is not a great deal of detail of this helmet.

[Doc]

I agree that caution should be used as Christian pointed out to copy such a helmet from statuary. BUT what else can we use? It is not the end all be all if I do not have an officer helmet reproduced. However, in the interest of logic, what could be produced for instance, if a museum asked for such an item. Do we say no because we believe that art for the most part does not show realtiy. In the end, it is a belief because what we dismiss may have been more real than we give credit to.

Look at the segmentata on T.C., granted it is not exactly like a what has been found but it does correctly show that there was something of a laminated armor.

These helmets on these reliefs I agree have certain elements that could tend to sway the opinion from reality but they must have been based on something real I would think. Maybe not!

They are Hellenistic in style but did the Romans including certain emperors not love everything Greek or Helenitic? If so why only show it in art but not in reality.

[PhilusEstilius]

When we read about the Autun helmet in the book by H.R.Robinson we find that Monsieur Vuillernot of the Musee' Rolin Autun. informed Robinson that it had been suggested that the helmet had been made for a statue therefore this should not be considered a fact.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I would think any decent Cavalry helmet from the time slot would do.
They were chosen from the Equites and ruling aristocracy.

[Alexand96]

Aren't the helmets P. Connolly shows hellenistic helmets from an earlier context,

I did have a chance to check this out quickly last night (believe it's on pg. 273ish), and you are correct - the caption simply states something to the effect of "Hellenistic type of helmet as worn by Roman officers," so as far as I can tell, the helmet has no Roman context. Still, would really like to learn more about this helmet if anyone has any information.

I would think any decent Cavalry helmet from the time slot would do.
They were chosen from the Equites and ruling aristocracy.

I believe this would be a prudent way to go about it. Although I personally believe that the Roman officer class post-Grecian wars would have been outfitted with as expensive, decorated Hellenized armor as possible, and thus would have have much personal variation in what they wore, I'm sure many of the underlying typologies (Boetian helmets, for example) would have remained evident.

Although I understand the re-enactor's and historian's hesitance to rely on artistic representation, and for good reason, on this particular subject I do find it striking that of all the artistic depictions I've seen depicting Roman officers and armor-clad gods (Mars) there seems to be only two typologies: various forms of attic helms and Italo-Corintian helms.

[Doc]

Interesting point Byron. Now, who can make the Xanten Cavalry Helmet :lol:

I agree Alexander that these are the two types shown. Therefore, to me it would appear that there is an element of truth in what the artists are showing. We may find such a helmet and it may not be exactly what the statues show but it may also not be a fantasy.

[Theodosius the Great]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe the Roman officer class was trying to pose as Hellenistic.

As such your statement may be correct, it would fit very well with what J.E. Lendon writes in Soldiers and Ghosts. But a helmet replica for the imperial period can not be based on a find. So IMO a continuity of use of hellenistic helmet types first should be proven, if one would want to use one.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm surprised to hear you say that, Caius. You made a replica of the Italic A helmet from Herculaneum which looks very Hellenistic to me. (photos of the original in the link below)

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...221#285314


~Theo