Wearing scale on mail

[PhilusEstilius]

Theo mentions that scale is uncofortable however if we look at the Centurian Sertorius Festus, we find that his scale armour fits him like a glove and this may not just be because of artistic talent of the sculpter.
For indeed a Squamata can be made that way if it is made to fasten up at the rear, it can be given a waistline hip and chest areas can be shaped by the amount of scales that are put into the rows in it's construction, in fact it can even be given shoulders and sleeves if scaled correctly.
However chainmail or Hamata has to be of one size all alomg it's length so as to clear the shoulders of the wearer, this of course does have the advantage that the weight distribution can be helped with a waist belt.
A muscled cuirass when made in clasical style with the abdomen covered can become a problem where the wearer wishes to sit, if we look at most figures of the Emperors wearing these types it becomes very evident that they are always in a standing position or pose and that is all that I think that style was made for display.
It would I think be very difficult indeed for anyone to be able to leap around in a combat situation when wearing such a full style of cuirass.

[Theodosius the Great]

Interesting. I knew of only two ways to achieve a muscled look with scales: by stitching them onto a hamata or stitching them to a leather muscled cuirass. The first way works very well even with large scales since the plates are grafted onto the mail. But this method isn't authentic, AFAIK. Neither is the other method.

I'd be interested to see how a scaled shirt with a back opening appears on a wearer.

[jvrjenivs]

by stitching them onto a hamata ...) works very well even with large scales since the plates are grafted onto the mail. But this method isn't authentic, AFAIK.

Huh? How would you describe a lorica hamata squamataque then? Okay they are not stiched to the rings, but the rings are going through the scales.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes, i agree with Jurjen. The first thing that comes to mind, scales on mail.
Ask Erik Scmidt how authentic it is. mile:

[Theodosius the Great]

I would imagine that scales on a hybrid shirt like scale-mail would at least double the weight, making it the most uncomfortable armor of any type. Anyone on RAT who owns one and would like to comment? :grin:

~Theo

[jvrjenivs]

I would imagine that scales on a hybrid shirt like scale-mail would at least double the weight, making it the most uncomfortable armor of any type. Anyone on RAT who owns one and would like to comment? :grin:

~Theo

Well, as far as I know only 2 suits are around. One of them was in the same range as the normal versions, as less thick metal for both scales and rings was used.

[Robert Vermaat]

I've made this into a new thread.

[richard robinson]

I believe Dan Peterson owns a shirt (lorica plumata) as described above?.

regards
Richard

[richard robinson]

Also Brian
the founder of the club i joined in the late 7os pinted out that the bronze cuirass that was accredited by Connoly and others as being a horsemans muscled cuirass (Helenistic Period) wasn't possible because of the flaring when riding.
However when coming to sitting in rigid armour, campaign stools are the right way to go about getting a perch
regards
Richard

[Statius]

I would imagine that scales on a hybrid shirt like scale-mail would at least double the weight, making it the most uncomfortable armor of any type. Anyone on RAT who owns one and would like to comment? :grin:

~Theo

Tried wearing and fighting in Lamellar armour over chain with a padded submaralis underneath and whilst I certainly felt well protected my movement was incredibly restricted and after a very short time I was exhausted. I was fighting on foot an in a shieldwall and could see this maybe working for a cataphract but certainly not for the poor bloody infantry. Interestingly enough the chain left the lamellar in a terrible state as the rubbing friction cut through the leather thonging binding the lamellar together. Hence you would have to have your scale/lamellar attached by wire (as has been evidenced)or alternatively wear a layer of protective clothing between the chain and scale/Lamellar.

[Medicus matt]

Keep calling it chain and I'm going to bend your new sword in half and throw it in the skip.
The fact that you, an early middle aged desk jockey, felt exhausted after a few minutes of running about, doesn't have any real bearing on the subject does it?

[Statius]

Keep calling it chain and I'm going to bend your new sword in half and throw it in the skip.
The fact that you, an early middle aged desk jockey, felt exhausted after a few minutes of running about, doesn't have any real bearing on the subject does it?

Ah wondered how long it would be before you put your 'two penneth worth' in Mr B. You have a valid point. However whilst my lack of fitness may well account for something of my predicament I still maintain that the general encumbrance and lack of movement of this combination makes it's use for infantry prohibitive.

Apologies for erring in my use of the word c@*in, would you kindly now remove my nice new sword from the skip and straighten the blade :mrgreen:

[Medicus matt]

I think you're right, I think that the encumberance of scale or lamellar over mail IS prohibitive, which takes us back to my old argument:- If wearing both is too heavy for the PBI, and the mail provides the better coverage overall (especially to those bits not already covered by your big shield), why would infantry bother with scale/lamellar UNLESS it was the only armour available to them?
Unlike re-enactors, their primary consideration was "How likely am I to go home with my arms and legs in a seperate bag?" rather than "How cool do I look?".

[Doc]

To date AFAIK there is NO actual reconstruction of scale on mail. Dan Peterson took shark mail used in diving suits and wired scales onto it. The scale size is roughly what you would find on a Squamata.

As Byron pointed out, Erik Schmid is working on the only true scale-mail shirt known as LHS as Jurjen pointed out earlier in the thread. I know this to be true because he is making it for me. The project has already gone into it's fourth year. There have been several set backs that needed working out. Finally, we are under smooth way but the miniature size of all the parts makes it a daunting nightmare. Erik is making the garment using the actual size for the mail and scales.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Wow, that will be awesome to see Doc!
I can't imagine how frustrating it must be a: making it and b: waiting for it to be finished!