Scale Armor & Accuracy

[markusaurelius]

I agree with what Doc states on both the design and rings showing part. Every original piece mentioned in this thread, and there are many, all are preserved in their original position, with the links showing. And these are not lamilar pieces. I really cant see any evidence for scale armor with the rings not showing, and would find the interpretation of some possible wear pattern on rings much more circumstantial than all the other evidence.

Is that example from Turda certain to be from a person? Could it not also be from horse armor, and be the rounded area around the neck.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

https://sites.google.com/site/archoevide...ale-armour

this is an interesting site....scale not being my favourite armour, but needs must has forced me to do some searching.

[Bernwart]

Sure Markus, could be also from as horse armour. The Legion in Potaissa was the Leg V Macedonia, being from 166 - 274 in Potaissa. As seen in Wikipedia they have fought as a mobile cavalry unit the campaign against Ingenuus in 260.

The following link is from the local museum. If I translate the text with an online translator, it just says: "The fragment shows the neck over the shoulder neckline and slightly back", which sounds for me to be human used. The size of the scales may give a hint, but this is missing in the short text. Maybe someone has one of the mentioned books?
http://muzeu-turda.cimec.ro/Exponatulvir...fault.aspx

[PhilusEstilius]

The curve of scales around the neck is not so difficult a task in fact the scales on the shoulder area should indeed be at 90 degrees to the torso, where this curve is carried out correctly one can also take them off the shoulder and down to the elbow.

[Doc]

Looking at the sizes of the scales can provide a hint as to whether something is horse armor or not. To my knowledge the scales found to be associated with horse armor are much larger than those found for use by men. I am not saying that small scales could not be used for horse armor BUT the evidence suggests that large scales (I think 2x the size but I will leave the measurments to cavalry armor experts) are more in- line with horse armor.

Again, I defer to those with an expertise in cavalry equipment.

[gaiusseptimiuslucianus]

Looking at the sizes of the scales can provide a hint as to whether something is horse armor or not. To my knowledge the scales found to be associated with horse armor are much larger than those found for use by men. I am not saying that small scales could not be used for horse armor BUT the evidence suggests that large scales (I think 2x the size but I will leave the measurments to cavalry armor experts) are more in- line with horse armor.

Again, I defer to those with an expertise in cavalry equipment.

Also, (and I'm thinking of the finds from Dura as I write this)I have the feeling iron scales tend also to be horse armor related. Just a gut feeling due to their size.

Lucianus

[gaiusseptimiuslucianus]

Markus,

Sorry I'm coming a bit late to this, but I wanted to tell you just how very nice your armor turned out. You've done a terrific job and made some very thoughtful decisions as to details. I think your decision on the side closure was well done.

I had a few thoughts that I wonder if you could address. On the right side of the armor you made an opening as opposed to just having an opening on the left (shield covered) side. Was this because it would have been impossible to wiggle into? Was it for symmetry? I ask because its an issue I will be grappling with in the not too distant future. It strikes me that having a solid right side would be preferable in terms of protection. Regarding the edge binding, there has been some discussion in this thread about the use of rawhide. I have been looking at the surviving examples from Dura on the Yale Museum website and have noticed that the thonging surviving on iron scales seems to be dark color tanned leather, while that thonging on bronze scales tends to be light colored. I wondered if instead of rawhide it might actually be tawed leather or oil tanned (buff) leather. The former method would result in white leather and the latter in cream colored. Either method would result in a soft, pliable thong which would be I think easier to thread through the holes in the edging.

Again, you've done a great job! Thanks so much for sharing it with us.

Best,

Lucianus

[markusaurelius]

Regarding the leather edging/stitching. The dura examples are noted as being rawhide by the author. The dark leather section of the Dura finds are believed to be rawhide that has been treated to preserve it (hence why it is nearly black). The Carpow find lists the edging as tanned leather. I think the argument could be made either way, as it would be hard to tell rawhide from tanned leather after 2000 years. That being said I did it with veg tanned calf hide, which worked very well, and still remained flexible.

I left both sides of the armor open, simply because I saw no reason to have it closed, or any evidence for it being closed on original pieces. Not that this is any reason, but I also thought about todays body armor that is open and attached on both sides. Clearly the ease of getting the armor on, storing it flat out weighs any protection benefits.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, I have little problem donning scale with only one side opening, so
I'm not sure if both sides open are 'easier'...you then have 2 sides to fasten.? :errr:

[Bernwart]

Having the "Peroni-Version" with only one side open, I can´t complain regarding wearing, storing or getting dressed/undressed.

Fighting is also easier having no buckles or ties on the right side.

[Dan Howard]

When I use armour that fastens on both sides I usually leave one side permanently closed anyway. It is quicker to put on and remove.

[PhilusEstilius]

I would agree that a side fixing for squamata is good and I have made several in this fashion, however with a rear centre lacing the armour can be made to fit so much better with a waistline and a good contour to the body.

Here is a picture of the grave stone of Centurian Sertorius Festus from Verona that shows this and it is not just some thing that has been done by the artist mason for this kind of armour can in fact be made to fit very neat in this way. The waist, hips, and chest size is controled by the amount of scales in the rows as it is being built upwards.
[attachment=5956]100_0319Medium.jpg[/attachment]

[Kegluneq]

Here is a picture of the grave stone of Centurian Sertorius Festus from Verona that shows this and it is not just some thing that has been done by the artist mason for this kind of armour can in fact be made to fit very neat in this way. The waist, hips, and chest size is controled by the amount of scales in the rows as it is being built upwards.

Very nice image, but might there be a bit of artistic licence in play? I could believe in contouring to fit the body, but also in emphasising the pectorals?

Rear fastening armour presumably would require the help of another person to put on, which does seem to ruin one distinct advantage of mail and scale over segmented armour. Perhaps Centurions could get special kit as they could expect to have slaves/obsequious optiones close to hand?

[PhilusEstilius]

Robert.

I would agree that this tomb stone does look like a bit of artistic licence is at play here, however having made some squamata in the past I have found that one can make it much more of a fit with a rear fastening than side openings.
Then of course as you mention it is where the soldier would need some help in putting this armour on, however soldiers do tend to stick together and help one another a fine example look at the guys who yomped over the Falklands they had to help each other to get those back packs on.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Very nice image, but might there be a bit of artistic licence in play? I could believe in contouring to fit the body, but also in emphasising the pectorals?

This is a typical emperor / Mars pose, with just the right arm and type of armour modified. Not suited at all as a source about scale armor unfortunately, Brian.