Scale Armor & Accuracy

[Robert Vermaat]

Markus, that is beautiful.

Could you post a picture of the upper part in detail, especially the neck (which does look rounded)?
Did you stitch each scale directly on the canvas, or on a leather thong?
I had some criticism that my scales did not overlap enugh and that the interlocking wire showed. Yours does too (I'm relieved to see).

[markusaurelius]

Markus, that is beautiful.

Could you post a picture of the upper part in detail, especially the neck (which does look rounded)?
Did you stitch each scale directly on the canvas, or on a leather thong?
I had some criticism that my scales did not overlap enugh and that the interlocking wire showed. Yours does too (I'm relieved to see).

What I meant to say was that the scales are still horizontally layed out, and dont follow the curve of the neck opening. For example how the indian reconstructions all have a circular rounded section at the shoulder.

I wonder why you would get criticism for the wire showing! It should be the reverse The point of this thread wasto show that the overwhelming evidence that the scales were layed out with the wires showing. Them not showing appears to be a reenactorism

I'll post some further pics later to show the neck area.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes, apparently, after people have forked out a few fortunes, the scales seem to have the wires showing...ah well, something else to explain to the public.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Yeah the commercial suits are usually done in the "oyster" style. I like this one, reminds me of Lamellar armor patterns from the east. It's an amazing piece of work.

[Sutoris]

Excellent reconstruction Markus!

Could you show us a picture wearing it?

[Robert Vermaat]

I wonder why you would get criticism for the wire showing! It should be the reverse The point of this thread wasto show that the overwhelming evidence that the scales were layed out with the wires showing. Them not showing appears to be a reenactorism

Good! :-)

How about the attachment directly on the canvas?

[markusaurelius]

Robert.

The scales were mounted to the canvas in both the Dura and Carpow examples. The one segment of backing in the Dura example that had the leather triangular edging was simply that, an edging, and was not over the whole armor backing. So mounting to the canvas sounds like a great idea.

I slightly bent the last two rows of scales (at the top of the shoulder) to make sure they touched the row below. I'm not sure it would have been necessary, however it works.


[attachment=5948]shoulderarea2.jpg[/attachment]

[Bernwart]

Markus, absolut great piece of work. Congratulations!

I´ve read this thread thoroughfully and I´m now convinced to cut off all my scales for re-attachment in the right way. Horrible idea, but it has to be done - lack of own research is asking it´s price ...

Nonetheless one question regarding the shoulder section. In my opinion this is one of the most critical areas regarding safety. Means, "just" sewing a leather strip may be not enough for such an exposed part. The Dura findings shows also other scale sizes, so probably the bigger ones would have been attached in a 90° angle (from neck to arm)? Just a thought, unfortunately I don´t know any picture/statue showing that in detail ...

[Kegluneq]

Nonetheless one question regarding the shoulder section. In my opinion this is one of the most critical areas regarding safety. Means, "just" sewing a leather strip may be not enough for such an exposed part. The Dura findings shows also other scale sizes, so probably the bigger ones would have been attached in a 90° angle (from neck to arm)? Just a thought, unfortunately I don´t know any picture/statue showing that in detail ...

I was wondering that, but maybe shoulder protection would be less of a factor if the wearer were a cavalryman? A slash would have to be pretty much level to not hit scales, and barbarians aren't that tall...

[Bernwart]

Well Robert, I guess to hit or better stab at scales from a lower level is an easy way to get through, even not reaching the shoulder part.

In the meantime I found a picture of a squamata piece looking like a round collar from Potaissa (Turda), dated 2. - 3. century.
[attachment=5949]T-Lorica.jpg[/attachment]

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...detail.JPG

To be fair, in this image, it can just as easily be said that the majority of the scales are overlapping, and the ones with the wires showing are due to damage to the armour after 1600 years or
so in the ground?

[markusaurelius]

Bernd, thanks for the picture. Cant say Ive see that piece before. In regards to the shoulder area, the leather strip is just decorative and covers the seam. The opposing rows of scales meet at the shoulder, but dont overlap. The leather strip just cosmedically hides that joint. I was thinking of putting a row of scales along that joint, a bit like a tiled roof of a house at the peak. But there was no physical evidence that I could find to suppport it. Also that joint isnt as weak as it would seem. Any sword blow to the should would be spread over the length of the blade at that area, and therefore also over the length of numerous scales, and not just the two jointed rows at the seam. I really dont see that area being a weak spot.

But the possibility of some kind of round shoulder collar is possible I should think

[markusaurelius]

Byron,

I think that image shows scales that are not attached to their original backing. They appear to have simply been attached when put up at the museum. I'd hold more stock with examples that are still attached to thier canvas backing (very rare to find obviously)

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well to be honest, I am open to the idea that the rings can be visible as easily as covered up,
I see marks on these scales where the wires are exposed that to me appears to be from the edges of the row above marking the scale, and in a position which would obscure the wires, on this particular piece. However, there is as much to argue as has been said, that the exposed wires are evident on the lamalar armour and seem quite acceptable......

I think Matt Lukes makes his with the wires exposed!

[Doc]

From the examples I have seen, the connecting wires do show. With respect to everyone running around with those
collars, I think that is a bad experiment gone beserk. That piece is rounded but it could have been a part of a larger piece
where it would "blend" with the rest of the body. The commercially produced pieces make it appear as if it were a bishop's
mantle thrown over the torso. The roundedness should begin shortly under the pectorals ever so gently. Curve exaggeration should
begin from midway in the pectoral region to the neck. Moreover, the piece shown is from the 2nd - 3rd C and there are people from
the mid 1st using this same type of design as if it is the only true design for any squamata.
Of course looking at iconography all sorts of designs are gleamed so the rounded idea
is not farfetched. However, I think that variation is important which, I think Markus has achieved.