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Scale Armor & Accuracy
#61
Quote:When I look at most scale armour I find that the scales appear to have been punched out in a mass production fashion with them all the same size and shape, and as Sutoris maentions the flat strips for putting them together may have been cut from the sheet metal of the scales.

I disagree. I would argue that the evidence on originals is exactly the opposite. Each scale has different shapes and cuts. In fact many of them have one side curved more than the other, consistent with a right handed person cutting the metal with shears, over cutting the turn.(Try cutting an un-traced circle/half circle with a pair of scissors and see how one has a tenancy to cut the right turn too sharply compared to the left side)


[attachment=5788]MuseumCarnuntinumAustria.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment=5789]trimontium-roman_scale_mail_closeup.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5790]Scaleexample.jpg[/attachment]


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Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity

Roman Artifacts
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#62
Quote:I disagree. I would argue that the evidence on originals is exactly the opposite. Each scale has different shapes and cuts. In fact many of them have one side curved more than the other, consistent with a right handed person cutting the metal with shears, over cutting the turn.(Try cutting an un-traced circle/half circle with a pair of scissors and see how one has a tenancy to cut the right turn too sharply compared to the left side)
Sim and Kaminksy used the Carlisle squamata as a case study and seem to think that the scales on this one were cut with a chisel. The scales were likely cut from a mechanically-produced strip of iron rather than a sheet.

Even when ferrous ties are used the metal used to fasten the plates is not the same as the metal from which the scales were made so it couldn't have been cut from the same plate. Given what we are starting to lean abot Roman metal fabrication it would make sense for every individual component to be mass-produced in an operation independent from each other. One workshop mass-produced wire. Another produced iron plate, another produced strips of iron, another made copper-alloy plate, another made hinges, etc. The scales likely came from one source, the backing from another, and the ties from a third source.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#63
Markus.

Where anyone would suggest that curves for scales were cut by hand does not appear to be a very logical explanation for the mass production of these things. In fact Dan has even mentioned that the examples studied from Carlisle shows that they may have been cut with a chisel that sounds more like a much better production method than hand shears.
Brian Stobbs
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#64
Would it not take much longer to cut scales with a chisel making mass production lose its meaning? I am currently making scales for my squamata and am using shears. I achieve the same appearance of imperfection that is obvious on the originals. To me the idea of using a chisel seems awfully illogical. I know that the Romans had peculiar ways of doing things at times but producing scales with a chisel seems farfetched. You would have to put the chisel on the sheet metal and then strike continually following a round shape. To me, the bottoms of scales seem too round to have been done in this manner unless after cutting out the scales they were filed into their final rounded shape. Granted the sides on some of the scales look like more metal has been removed than desired but the same is true for shears. You do not need a chisel for that to happen. Cutting with shears is much more logical and productive when making thousands of scales. Of course if one argues that the chisel was exactly like the shape of the scale's rounded end, then that is a different story.
I would think that overall scale production was carried out with shears and the scales believed to be made with a chisel were repairs or replacement scales.
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
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#65
Quote:Where anyone would suggest that curves for scales were cut by hand does not appear to be a very logical explanation for the mass production of these things.

My argument was not against mass production, because it makes sense that the scales were produced in an assembly line type situation (one cuts the strip, another cuts the scale to size, another punches the holes and another cuts the curve out of the bottom for instance). My arguement is that the scales were still make by hand, and not made in some uniform identical/mechanical fashion. The physical evidence disproves that.

I agree with Doc regarding the chisel method. I could see the chisel being used for the scales with the flat bottoms, and the triangular cut corners. That would be a simple chisel hit on the three spots. The curved scales however would logically seem to have been done with sheers.



[attachment=5808]straightcutscales.jpg[/attachment]


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Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity

Roman Artifacts
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#66
Quote:Would it not take much longer to cut scales with a chisel making mass production lose its meaning?
Sim made a curved chisel that enabled him to cut the rounded edge on each scale with a single blow. Using this technique he averaged one and a half minutes for each scale from start to finish.

Mark and cut to length: 8 secs
cut with curved chisel: 20 secs
punch holes: 25 secs
de-bur edges: 22 secs
inspect for flatness: 5 secs
straighten buckled scales: 10 secs

see pp. 104-109
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#67
Quote:
Doc post=324399 Wrote:Would it not take much longer to cut scales with a chisel making mass production lose its meaning?
Sim made a curved chisel that enabled him to cut the rounded edge on each scale with a single blow. Using this technique he averaged one and a half minutes for each scale from start to finish.
Worth mentioning that Sim cut the scales to shape first (presumably using shears although it's not clearly stated), using the chisel only for the curved radius. He also doesn't include marking the radius and hole locations on the third experiment timings whereas he does for the earlier experiments. Otherwise, he found that using shears and a file alone was quicker than also using a straight chisel, as well as being simpler. Unless a curved chisel has been found, their existence can't really be surmised on the basis of efficiency alone. When compared to ring mail manufacture, any method of making scale would be quicker.
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#68
If I'm reading it correctly, on p. 105 they hypothesise that the scales were cut fom strips that had been forged directly from the bloom to the correct width. The scales were not cut from sheets of plate. The only cutting involved is the straight edge along the top (step 1) and the curved edge along the bottom (step 2). Note that this might be the best way to replicate some Roman scale such as the Carlisle armour, but in the photos that Markus presented above it looks like they have been cut with shears.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#69
I am guessing that slightly flatter side is caused by wearof the plate against the ones below, as that side is rubbing in on it.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#70
If it is a wear pattern inherent in the construction then it should be evident in all extant examples. What about modern reconstructions? Some people have been wearing squamata for many years. Do any of them show the same wear pattern?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#71
Quote:If I'm reading it correctly, on p. 105 they hypothesise that the scales were cut fom strips that had been forged directly from the bloom to the correct width. The scales were not cut from sheets of plate. The only cutting involved is the straight edge along the top (step 1) and the curved edge along the bottom (step 2).
Hrm, for some reason I pictured the width of the strip being the length of the scale, rather than the width (so the base and top would already be straight, and a single cut up one side of the scale would separate it). I did misread that passage though so you are correct.
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#72
Sorry Dan, no one wears them for many years!
They wear them once in a blue moon, over a period of
many years! There is little chance of replicating such wear
with the little people wear their kit these days!
And not all scales in one set would wear the same as others
I would think, due to the different stresses from their location
in a set!

But it is only a theory! Sorry 8)
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#73
I would agree that scales could have had the curved bottom edge cut with shears however I don't think that strips would have been made from hammering out direct from a bloom this is indeed only a hypothesis. The bloom would have been hammered out to a reasonable thickness then rolled into sheet form to give a thinner metal for making scales.

I do think that people including many so called experts tend to under estimate Roman craftsmanship, for if the Romans could make such fantastic punches for making coins, beltplates, rosettes, and other such fantastic pieces of work they were very capable of creating punches for scale armour also.
Brian Stobbs
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#74
Auxiliary helmet and umbo of Thracian funeral (most likely owned by the Officer) First Century AD. Underneath shows a pile of squamata elements. Archaeological Museum Sofia, Bulgaria
[Image: sam8787.jpg]

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Radostin Kolchev
(Adlocutio Cohortium)
http://legio-iiii-scythica.com/index.php/en/
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#75
I wondered where Erik got the inspiration for that one! :grin:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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