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Hoping for some insight.
#1
I've been trying to learn a little more about Greek warfare. All you ever hear about, however, are the large-scale battles. I was wondering if there were small force raids and patrols. Was it always thousands against thousands or were there plenty of smaller skirmishes of dozens, maybe just a few hundred men? Did the wars usually just consist of a few, large battles, or many small battles between those large conflicts?


Edit: Actually have one additional question. Sparta was described as having several (six?) tribes. Were all the tribes (and two kings) located IN Sparta or was it spread out over several Laconia city-states? Sorry... I'm not the brightest fellow and have had difficulties making sense of maps and historical writings.
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#2
Hoplite warfare arose as a means of resolving the conflict between small city states. The vast majority of hoplite battles would have involved no more than a few hundred men on each side.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#3
Quote:Edit: Actually have one additional question. Sparta was described as having several (six?) tribes. Were all the tribes (and two kings) located IN Sparta or was it spread out over several Laconia city-states?

In simple terms:

Sparta had three tribes - subethnos groups, which were probably more significant in Archaic times than in the Classical period, and had probably more or less lost any value by the Hellenstic era. They were the Hylleis, Pamphyloi and Dymanes. However, these three groups were common to all Dorian settlements, not just Sparta.

The city had four obes which were sort of villages or districts, that as a cluster constituted the unwalled city (which was only very much later encircled with a wall). They were Pitana; Limnai; Mesoa and Konooura. In addition to these was Amyklai, nominally the fifth obe, although it was several miles south of the main four.

Both Kings families belonged to the Hylleis group.

In reality it is all far more complicated than that, and changed as time went by. I would suggest getting hold of A History of Sparta by W.G. Forrest, which is a good starter.
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
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#4
A good example of what you're looking for is the Battle on the island of Sphacteria during the Pel. War (written up as a fairly good novel). The Athenians took around 300 hoplite prisoners at the end so the numbers probably started out pretty small right from the start.

Also while not hoplites per se (light troops - Archers, Spear & sword men), Polycrtes raids on the Ionian Coast and the Eastern Aegean Islands from the Island of Samos prior to the Ionian Revolt wouldn't have involved any large numbers.

The real problem in answering your question, is with the exception of the Battle on Sphacteria what you're looking for really wouldn't get written up or remembered.

Anyone with any military background will tell you that armies send out patrols and those patrols sometimes meet and clash. When Sparta seiged Athens and was cutting down the olive tree's I'm sure it was small patrols that went out to the different area's to do the work and they'd bump into Athenian troops out patrolling for intelligence on who / what / where.
Ira Gossett
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#5
Quote:I would suggest getting hold of A History of Sparta by W.G. Forrest, which is a good starter.
Or, say, an Osprey book about the Spartans? :wink: (My calendar's marked: 24 July.)
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#6
Quote:
Ghostmojo post=308371 Wrote:I would suggest getting hold of A History of Sparta by W.G. Forrest, which is a good starter.
Or, say, an Osprey book about the Spartans? :wink: (My calendar's marked: 24 July.)

Nice one sir - I shall look forward to that. My own views about Nick Secunda's rather incomplete Osprey book are a matter of record (if you can find them) on here! :twisted:

Mind you, no mention of this new one on Osprey's site (not even in forthcoming titles) :-(

However, our new friend struck me a something of a beginner - a first visit to the Temple of Artemis Orthia for the ritual flogging :lol: - so WGF is a good introduction...
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
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#7
Quote:Mind you, no mention of this new one on Osprey's site (not even in forthcoming titles)
Haven't seen the proofs yet, nor the cover, but Osprey seem to have set a date. Not wishing to hog this thread, so I shall bow out. 8)
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#8
Thanks so much for all of the responses, guys. I've had a long interest in Ancient Greece, but have only recently begun trying to actually become 'familiar' with it. Mainly because I would like to do some writing (short stories).

I'll definitely see about getting those books, as well, wasn't sure what material to get. Smile

I have one more question: Naturally stories often have to do with one person or a small group (small being relative - was thinking perhaps a little over 30 soldiers [enōmotia?]). Naturally, as well, stories - and I - love conflict. I was wondering what would be a very common way to introduce some small-scale battles without it being too historically inaccurate.

Anyways. Thanks again everyone. You've been a great help. Came out of this decently more sure of myself and will be ordering that book. Smile
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#9
Well a few ways past authors have used:

The Hittite - Small group of soldiers following their Squad leader on a quest. Fighting bandits at villages over supplies.

Children of the Lion series - Battles at / from border garrisons, putting down revolts / uprisings or causing them.

And of course Xenophon - Troops stranded in enemy territory fighting their way home.
Ira Gossett
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#10
Quote:
Ghostmojo post=308394 Wrote:Mind you, no mention of this new one on Osprey's site (not even in forthcoming titles)
Haven't seen the proofs yet, nor the cover, but Osprey seem to have set a date. Not wishing to hog this thread, so I shall bow out. 8)

Please supply me with any information though - as I am very interested - either via personal message, here, or via another thread. I assume the 753BC kick-off date has something to do with the Messenian Wars? I can't think of another reason off-hand as to why you would choose to be so date specific.

Regards
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
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#11
Quote:I assume the 735BC kick-off date has something to do with the Messenian Wars? I can't think of another reason off-hand as to why you would choose to be so date specific.
You know Osprey -- they like their "start-date/end-date" titles. I agreed to 735 BC (as you rightly surmised) as the approximate date of the First Messenian War. But, as it's a Warrior series title, I have taken the opportunity to explore the society that produced the Spartan warriors, rather than a battle-by-battle historical narrative.
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#12
Cheers. I await it as keenly as I do the reissue of the Lazenby book Smile :grin: 8)

I mistakenly got the date on your book wrong - I put 753 which you have corrected to 735!! Sorry about that, although the actual dates might have been nearer 743 (Pausanias), in Alkmenes' reign, but who can really say?
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
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#13
Quote:Cheers. I await it as keenly as I do the reissue of the Lazenby book
Stiff competition! Confusedhock: (Mine has nicer pictures!)
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#14
Plutarchs "virtue of women" is full of small scale comando type operations where the ladies also had a part.

Thucidides and and Thebanm sneak attack on Platea is a good example of a small scale operatin that went wrong,


My friend Duncan. Good idea that you started in 735 B.C.
I you started in 775 you had to mention that the women of Tegea beat the @#$@#R@$@ off the Spartan Army and Queen Marpissa took King Harillos as prisoner! :twisted: :twisted:
Not a good intro on abook about the mighty Spartan Army :twisted: :twisted:

And YES!!!!!! Duncan'w book HAS THE BEST PICTURES!!!!!!!!!
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#15
Well I do look forward to reading any new Osprey book about Spartan Warriors that:

(a) perhaps tells me something I didn't already know
(b) helps put right the deficiencies of the Sekunda Osprey book
© has some nice new images of warriors through the various centuries

It's interesting. I actually wrote to Osprey about this a good few years ago. I pointed out NS's book missed things out; half of the soldier images weren't even of Spartans; he completely failed to even discuss the Hippeis issues (or mention them at all); and so on. I also felt that both much earlier (i.e archaic) and much later (i.e. hellenistic) periods had been largely ignored, because as with many books about the Spartan military - they tend to finish up after Leuktra/Mantinea - and yet there is still so much more to say, or at least speculate and discuss. Any book on Sparta's armies should really include the activities of kings like Areos I and most definitely Kleomenes III. I know we possess far less source material for these periods - but an attempt should be made.

I can see your title finishes with the period of Megalopolis and Agis III, which is one of the worthy and notable chapter-endings in Spartan history, so I can't argue with that. I guess it will be up to somebody else to cover the hellenistic period of Sparta - perhaps not as a separate subject in itself - but maybe as part of a consideration of the fate of all the smaller states during the Makedonian and Akhaian hegemony periods - up until the Roman intervention.
[size=75:2kpklzm3]Ghostmojo / Howard Johnston[/size]

[Image: A-TTLGAvatar-1-1.jpg]

[size=75:2kpklzm3]Xerxes - "What did the guy in the pass say?" ... Scout - "Μολὼν λαβέ my Lord - and he meant it!!!"[/size]
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