Subarmalis designs?

[mcbishop]

For whatever it is worth, my group's re-enacting experience shows that properly made to fit segmented armor can be comfortably worn over a tunic, without any additional undergarment.

Presumably nobody was hitting you with sharp weapons and trying to kill you, in which case you may well have been grateful of it. :lol: Also, Lorica seg will not sit correctly without padded shoulders (the old 'crossed breastplates' problem).

Mike Bishop

[mcbishop]

it definitely is not required for scale or mail. I've already said previously that a lot more armour than we suppose probably had an integrated padded liner - especially mail.

David Sim's high-speed videos of missiles hitting mail and scale and the effect on underlying flesh substitutes (with and without padding) are extremely educational in this respect. Even without penetration (and mail is very resistant to it) the effect on the underlying organs is unpleasant (he has a military trauma surgeon advising him on precisely what happens where). He is working towards putting all this stuff on the web.

Mike Bishop

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

For whatever it is worth, my group's re-enacting experience shows that properly made to fit segmented armor can be comfortably worn over a tunic, without any additional undergarment.

Presumably nobody was hitting you with sharp weapons and trying to kill you, in which case you may well have been grateful of it. :lol: Also, Lorica seg will not sit correctly without padded shoulders (the old 'crossed breastplates' problem).

Mike Bishop

No, I would kill whoever tried to dent my expensive lorica :lol: Neither did we attempt a long march carrying a load on a shoulder. I was only addressing Sean's comment:

People who have worn lorica segmentata seem to feel that it is much more comfortable with an undergarment with padded shoulders...

As to "the crossed breastplates' problem" - yes, wearing a garment with padded shoulders would address that when arms are down, but then wearing the shoulder pads would actually create the same problem when the hands are up...

[Dan Howard]

David Sim's high-speed videos of missiles hitting mail and scale and the effect on underlying flesh substitutes (with and without padding) are extremely educational in this respect. Even without penetration (and mail is very resistant to it) the effect on the underlying organs is unpleasant (he has a military trauma surgeon advising him on precisely what happens where). He is working towards putting all this stuff on the web.

Can't wait to see it. I've ordered his book - twice so far. I preordered it when you first mentioned it but it never turned up, so I ordered it again when it became available on Amazon and I still don't have it - all of the other books I ordered at the same time turned up weeks ago. Someone doesn't want me to read it. I fully agree that mail worn with no padding isn't good for the flesh underneath. But there is no reason to think that a lot of examples couldn't have an integrated padded liner. There is no need for a separate garment underneath. Same with scale. Tut's scale armour was lined with six layers of linen and a seventh layer of fine leather.

[Sean Manning]

I think that comparative evidence for the use, and non-use, of arming garments is a source for the question of whether the Romans used such garments, and if so what armour they used them with and what they called them.

it definitely is not required for scale or mail. I've already said previously that a lot more armour than we suppose probably had an integrated padded liner - especially mail.

David Sim's high-speed videos of missiles hitting mail and scale and the effect on underlying flesh substitutes (with and without padding) are extremely educational in this respect. Even without penetration (and mail is very resistant to it) the effect on the underlying organs is unpleasant (he has a military trauma surgeon advising him on precisely what happens where). He is working towards putting all this stuff on the web.

Mike Bishop

I have a good counter example: No renaissance helmet with surviving padding would be allowed in a contact sport today, because the padding is too thin and they often lack a chin strap. Clearly, early modern soldiers made different decisions about acceptable risk of concussion than 21st century hobbyists do. Fiore has a Laconic comment that a good hit to the head with a pollaxe is lethal regardless of armour, but 15th century gentlemen fought with steel axes for fun! Similarly, a US Army report showed that infantry in Afghanistan were carrying 100 pound loads instead of the recommended 72 or less (and up to 150 lbs for some trades in some circumstances). Future historians who didn't have access to this data would be wrong to take the field manuals over soldiers' memoirs which mentioned having carried loads equal to their bodyweight (“When Smith and Jones grumbled about carrying loads of 50 kilos or more, they were engaged in soldierly grumbling not sober observation. As contemporary manuals show, loads were limited to 72 pounds ...”)

[Robert Vermaat]

test

[ANTONIVS MAGNVS]

Has anyone tried this one from Armamentaria?

www.armamentaria.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=539&zenid=a0ecc1bb46c83a0f2493acd4e6bf740d

Looks good but maybe too good?

[Dan Howard]

it definitely is not required for scale or mail. I've already said previously that a lot more armour than we suppose probably had an integrated padded liner - especially mail.

David Sim's high-speed videos of missiles hitting mail and scale and the effect on underlying flesh substitutes (with and without padding) are extremely educational in this respect. Even without penetration (and mail is very resistant to it) the effect on the underlying organs is unpleasant (he has a military trauma surgeon advising him on precisely what happens where). He is working towards putting all this stuff on the web.

Mike Bishop

There is a related thread on MyArmoury. Rod Walker has jousted with mail and an integrated liner using solid lances and reckons that there were no injuries except for bruising.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic....913#242913