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Ancient army numbers
#56
Quote:The hoplites allegedly routed the imperial left... With their mere appearance. What I see as more likely is the left simply retreating - they didn't even loose a shaft at the hoplites, and neither did the cavalry of Tissaphernes even try to engage them.

This bit of revisionism would warrant a thread of its own. Note that revisionism can be good if it is correct. But remember, unless we simply cast Xenophon aside, then the Persians failed to stand up to the Greeks twice, and the Greek evidently believed that they controlled the field of battle and could put a man on the Persian throne at will (the Persians available were all too smart to take them up on the offer, knowing what would happen politically).

As for a simple retreat by the Persians. They did loose at least one arrow, for a Greek on the left wing was shot Wink Their chariotry did not retire well if that was the plan! It would be odd for Tissaphernes to charge through the peltasts if the plan of the persians was to give way. Far more likely is that he charged through the peltasts opposite him as part of the general advance, and then did what so many cavalry forces did- thus he went for the baggage.

In the end we would have to dismiss outright events that Xenophon describes first hand:

Quote:Then Cleanor the Arcadian, being the eldest of the generals, made answer that they would die sooner than give up their arms. And Proxenus the Theban said: “For my part, Phalinus, I wonder whether the King is asking for our arms on the assumption that he is victorious, or simply as gifts, on the assumption that we are his friends. For if he asks for them as victor, why need he ask for them, instead of coming and taking them?5 But if he desires to get them by persuasion, let him set forth what the soldiers will receive in case they do him this favour.” [11] In reply to this Phalinus said: “The King believes that he is victor because he has slain Cyrus. For who is there now who is contending against him for his realm? Further, he believes that you also are his because he has you in the middle of his country, enclosed by impassable rivers, and because he can bring against you a multitude of men so great that you could not slay them even if he were to put them in your hands.”

Doesn't sound like a King that won a tactical victory to me. I am reluctant to believe that Xenophon is making up the sentiment, even if he made up the words.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Messages In This Thread
Ancient army numbers - by Dithyrambus - 02-12-2012, 01:25 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-12-2012, 02:32 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-12-2012, 03:09 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-12-2012, 03:10 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-12-2012, 03:14 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-12-2012, 03:23 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-12-2012, 03:26 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-12-2012, 03:28 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-12-2012, 03:35 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-12-2012, 03:37 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-12-2012, 03:44 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-12-2012, 04:31 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-12-2012, 07:08 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-12-2012, 01:42 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-12-2012, 03:50 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nathan Ross - 02-12-2012, 08:06 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-12-2012, 08:11 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nathan Ross - 02-12-2012, 08:38 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-12-2012, 08:46 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nathan Ross - 02-12-2012, 09:17 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-12-2012, 09:38 PM
Ancient army numbers - by D B Campbell - 02-12-2012, 10:48 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-12-2012, 11:14 PM
Ancient army numbers - by sonic - 02-13-2012, 01:08 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Ghostmojo - 02-13-2012, 01:13 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-13-2012, 02:06 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-13-2012, 05:58 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-13-2012, 06:12 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 06:13 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-13-2012, 06:30 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 07:23 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 07:43 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 07:47 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 07:52 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 07:55 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 09:19 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Epictetus - 02-13-2012, 11:41 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-13-2012, 02:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-13-2012, 02:56 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 05:26 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 06:01 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 06:21 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 06:34 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 06:55 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 07:02 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 07:12 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-13-2012, 07:24 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-13-2012, 07:31 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 07:50 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-13-2012, 07:54 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 08:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 08:29 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-13-2012, 08:31 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-13-2012, 08:43 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-13-2012, 09:03 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by PMBardunias - 02-13-2012, 11:21 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Ghostmojo - 02-14-2012, 02:34 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by rrgg - 02-14-2012, 03:45 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-14-2012, 03:46 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-14-2012, 05:33 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-14-2012, 06:42 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-14-2012, 08:51 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-14-2012, 06:03 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-14-2012, 06:19 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-14-2012, 09:20 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-14-2012, 09:48 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-14-2012, 11:31 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-15-2012, 05:24 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Eleatic Guest - 02-15-2012, 06:55 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 08:28 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 08:30 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 08:33 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 08:40 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 08:46 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 08:47 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-15-2012, 09:35 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 09:48 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 09:56 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 09:59 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 10:01 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 10:04 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 10:11 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 10:31 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-15-2012, 10:33 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 10:36 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 10:39 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 10:42 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 10:42 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 10:45 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 10:52 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-15-2012, 11:26 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-15-2012, 11:37 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012, 12:09 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012, 02:17 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012, 02:25 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012, 02:28 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 03:45 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-16-2012, 03:46 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012, 02:30 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-16-2012, 07:00 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Draconis ( Tom) - 02-16-2012, 07:14 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Ghostmojo - 02-16-2012, 08:10 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 08:28 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-16-2012, 08:31 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012, 08:48 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012, 08:58 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012, 09:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-16-2012, 09:13 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012, 09:54 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-16-2012, 09:55 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 09:56 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-16-2012, 10:00 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 10:00 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 10:02 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-16-2012, 10:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 10:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-16-2012, 10:13 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-16-2012, 11:25 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Ghostmojo - 02-17-2012, 12:18 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-17-2012, 01:03 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-17-2012, 01:14 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-17-2012, 01:40 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-17-2012, 03:10 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-17-2012, 03:13 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-17-2012, 04:40 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-17-2012, 06:06 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-17-2012, 06:11 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-17-2012, 06:18 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-17-2012, 06:24 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-17-2012, 07:12 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-17-2012, 08:18 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-17-2012, 08:40 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-17-2012, 09:11 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-17-2012, 10:22 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-17-2012, 11:38 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-18-2012, 12:17 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by sonic - 02-18-2012, 12:41 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-18-2012, 01:53 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-18-2012, 05:22 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Ghostmojo - 02-18-2012, 04:47 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-18-2012, 05:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-18-2012, 05:33 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 02-18-2012, 05:34 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-19-2012, 05:49 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-21-2012, 07:00 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-21-2012, 08:10 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-21-2012, 09:11 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-21-2012, 09:13 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-21-2012, 09:14 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-21-2012, 09:25 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-21-2012, 09:53 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-22-2012, 04:31 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-22-2012, 05:08 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Vindex - 02-22-2012, 07:10 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by MD - 02-22-2012, 11:31 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-23-2012, 03:07 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-23-2012, 03:53 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Sean Manning - 02-23-2012, 04:46 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-23-2012, 04:19 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-23-2012, 08:06 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by diegis - 02-23-2012, 08:55 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-23-2012, 09:13 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Lyceum - 02-23-2012, 09:15 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-23-2012, 10:13 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by MD - 02-24-2012, 01:25 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-24-2012, 09:11 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-24-2012, 08:04 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-24-2012, 08:35 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-25-2012, 08:24 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-25-2012, 08:51 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Roach - 02-26-2012, 04:37 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by MD - 02-26-2012, 05:10 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-26-2012, 10:38 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-26-2012, 11:57 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-27-2012, 02:02 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-28-2012, 06:11 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 02-28-2012, 07:50 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-28-2012, 07:53 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 02-28-2012, 08:40 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-28-2012, 08:58 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 02-28-2012, 09:03 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Tom - 03-01-2012, 12:24 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 03-01-2012, 04:34 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-11-2012, 11:50 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-12-2012, 12:03 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-12-2012, 07:51 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-12-2012, 08:47 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-13-2012, 03:29 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-13-2012, 10:20 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-13-2012, 04:39 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-13-2012, 05:32 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-13-2012, 05:39 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-13-2012, 05:51 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-13-2012, 06:14 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-13-2012, 07:10 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-13-2012, 07:11 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-13-2012, 07:11 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-13-2012, 07:12 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-13-2012, 07:49 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-13-2012, 08:13 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-13-2012, 09:42 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-14-2012, 04:16 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-14-2012, 06:08 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-14-2012, 07:14 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-14-2012, 08:02 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-14-2012, 08:23 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-14-2012, 09:25 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-14-2012, 09:38 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 07-14-2012, 10:25 AM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Macedon - 07-14-2012, 12:25 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-14-2012, 08:57 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Peter - 07-14-2012, 09:05 PM
Re: Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 08-04-2012, 07:01 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 09-10-2012, 07:50 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-10-2012, 08:47 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 09-10-2012, 11:47 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-11-2012, 12:29 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 09-11-2012, 02:34 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-11-2012, 03:42 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-11-2012, 04:13 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 09-11-2012, 11:30 AM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-11-2012, 05:09 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Virilis - 09-11-2012, 05:32 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 09-14-2012, 12:29 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Robert Vermaat - 09-14-2012, 05:26 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Paralus - 09-14-2012, 06:16 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-14-2012, 07:52 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Marja Erwin - 09-14-2012, 08:25 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nikanor - 10-19-2012, 02:43 PM
Ancient army numbers - by Nicholas Spencer - 09-03-2012, 06:04 PM

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